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Potential Regulator Improvements

13K views 62 replies 14 participants last post by  JustAnotherDude  
#1 · (Edited)
Ever since I learned that V-Stroms use a shunt regulator, which is commonly understood to be an inefficient regulation scheme, I have wondered how bad it really is. Having recently measured the alternator characteristics, I have been able to figure out how bad it is. I thought those results, and the reasons for them, would probably be of interest to some of the technically curious forum members. More interesting, perhaps to a larger group, is how much better the power generation system could work if some engineering know-how was applied to the problem rather than leaving it to Suzuki's cheap-trumps-all-else design philosophy.

I have modeled the 3-phase alternator using the following data, all taken from measurements and observations:
frequency: 3 * engine_RPM / 60 Hertz
peak voltage, open circuit, phase-to-phase: 60 * (engine_RPM/5000) Volts
resistance, phase to Y center: 100 milliOhms
This next datum is a commonly accepted value:
power available to 13VDC bus via bridge rectifier @ 5000 RPM: 380 Watts
The following datum is derived from the above, adjusted to yield available power when the shunt regulator is barely at the non-shunting condition:
inductance, phase to Y center: 1.2 milliHenry

For simplicity, and because I lack better data, I model the alternator's output voltage as sinusoidal. There is nothing in the design of its magetic structure or its windings which tends to generate a sinusoid, but since the winding inductance has such a dominant effect upon currents and would tend to filter out harmonics anyway, the sinusoidal approximation contributes only minor error to the summary results; the error is certainly small compared to the performance gains available with a modified power handling design.

I created a SPICE circuit simulation of the alternator, bridge, and DC bus using the above known/derived data and set the per-phase inductance to get the stated available bus power.

Running the sim at 2500, 5000, and 10,000 RPM, I see that the available power is remarkably insensitive to engine speed. Likewise for copper heating loss (and rectifier loss). At the lower speed and below, the output does fall off a little, consistent with what those using heated gear report in this forum.

The response to shunt regulation is quite interesting. Shunting half (or all) of the available current to ground barely changes stator heating. Based on what I can see from the simulation, and deduce from electronic principles now that I understand how the system actually works, stator heating is hardly affected by adding more power-consuming loads or eliminating some or all of them (when using the stock, shunt regulator). Torque on the rotor is affected by bus load current, as the phase of winding current aligns more or less with generated voltage. (At normal running RPM, the torque reverses 6 times per rotor rotation at each pole, although the sum of pole torques is much more level and always against rotation.)

Surprisingly, at the winding resistance I have, there is a nearly constant, 180 Watt loss in the stator windings -- relatively unchanged by either RPM or load current at normal running speeds. Because this is so high, I am going to make a 4-wire measurement of hot stator resistance to get a more accurate value. This value has almost no effect on available power because the voltage drop due to resistance is quite small compared to the effect of inductive reactance.

The reason power generation is so consistent across RPM and load change is that the stator winding inductive reactance and induced voltage are quite proportional to each other. As the engine speeds up, the frequency of the generated voltage goes up along with the induced voltage. Since the dominant impediment to current flow is the winding inductance, and since inductors impede current flow in proportion to frequency, available current remains nearly constant.

Once I established how a stock system performs, I began the investigation which motivated this work. I wanted to know what could be accomplished with a proper power converter -- one which can efficiently produce a different voltage and current at its output than what is consumed at its input. The result was astonishing to me, at first. (A rethink in light of what I learned from the simulation cured my astonishment.) It is possible, at 5000 RPM, with a relatively simple, buck topology, switching power converter, to get twice the output power (760 Watts) at about 3/5 the stator heating in comparison to the stock regulator (or the Shindengen series regulator.) Or, to get the "rated" output power, stator heating can be reduced to less than 1/6 what the stock design (or installed series regulator) suffers.

I have yet to work out what the improvement would be at delivered power levels below 380 Watts when the series regulator is installed. It acts somewhat like a switching step-down regulator, so its effect on stator heating for bikes with only stock loads is likely good enough to eliminate stator stress as a concern. But the series regulator cannot increase available power over what the stock setup can deliver, and it cannot reduce peak stator stress for bikes with 380 Watts of load.

The reason a power converter can so improve performance is that, at engine speeds used for normal riding, (not lugging), it can take power at a higher voltage and lower current in comparison to the conventional regulator(s). For any engine speed, there is a rectifier output voltage at which the product of that voltage and the available current (which goes down with increased voltage) reaches a maximum. That maximum occurs at about half of the average rectified, zero current voltage. The stock regulation scheme only operates at that maximum at about 2200 RPM. At all higher speeds, it operates past the optimum, on the high current side of the curve.

After this investigation, I believe it would be possible to build a replacement regulator which would make bikes with heated gear and added lighting work well electrically, with significantly reduced stator stress and significantly fewer problems with batteries being drained. (I think the regulator should have a "heated gear" outlet, which would be temporarily powered down when engine speed remains too low for too long to keep the battery up and heat the gear. This would happen after a few minutes at idle or lugging speed.)

I have well begun detailed electronic design of the power-converting regulator. Comments, questions and suggestions are welcome. I plan to build at least one, with an etched circuit board and commercially common parts. After that, (once it is a proven design), I'll see about offering kits or built and tested regulators, likely through an established, after-market vendor.
 
#5 ·
towards Engish

Responding to
Looks pretty interesting..if its ok with you I'm going to share this with a friend of mine who lectures in physics at the Sorbonne..
and
English please
and
I feel so inadequate.
I thought the circuit theory of the V-Strom's magneto and regulator would be interesting to those who have some familiarity with basic electronic principles, which should be regarded as some physics simplified and reduced to practical use. Nothing here would confound somebody who passed the first circuits class in an electrical engineering program or took a high school electronics course.

My conclusions, that there is much more power available from the magneto and that it can be taken with less stress upon the stator, should be interesting to those who use heated gear and grips or contemplate doing so. I explained why to show there is good reason to believe those conclusions and to subject them to critique by those able to do so. It's more than wishful thinking.

I don't know how to put the circuit theory into common English in a forum post of reasonable length. Anybody who wants to explore the concepts could peruse material such as Impedance Matching and AC Circuits.

Taking as given that electrical power flow is the product of voltage and current, the difficulty with the V-Strom power source can be seen as a mismatch between a high-voltage/not-so-high-current generator and a low-voltage/want-higher-current DC bus. The bus needs power in a form which can only be inefficiently supplied by the generator without somehow transforming voltage and current. None of the regulators I have found address that mismatch. (They drop voltage and leave current essentially unchanged.) Power converters do it ubiquitously, most of which convert AC line voltage to the much lower DC voltages needed by electronic systems. I think it is time to apply that common technology to V-Stroms and other bikes which provide less electrical power than some people need. (Making Suzuki's sorry stator design last longer is a bonus.)
 
#6 ·
I'm not so sure a power converter will help those pushing the limits with heated gear. Converting excess voltage to make more amps yet take it easy on the stator is great, but a full set of heated gear like the grips, gloves, jacket liner, pants liner and boot soles don't leave any excess voltage to convert once the heat controller gets much past half power. TANSTAAFL. You can get more I by using less E, but maximum P is maximum P.
 
#7 ·
Yes, no free lunch


But the present system rarely operates at the magneto's maximum P. At all operating RPMs above the low end of the engine's usable torque curve, the regulators now sold are operating on the higher current side of the power versus rectifier output voltage curve. If you plot stator output power versus rectifier output voltage for any given RPM, it is a parabola, reaching zero power at either maximum voltage (and open circuit, zero current) or maximum current and zero voltage (such as the shunt nearly forces). About halfway in between, the voltage*current product (or power) is maximized, and that maximum is at a higher voltage than the DC bus (or the bus plus rectifier drops) whenever the engine runs at speeds commonly used when not stopped (or badly lugging.)

At 5000 RPM, that maximum occurs at about 40 Volts, and over twice as much power is available compared to what can be taken at 13 VDC from the bridge. If it would help, I could publish some math and plots showing this. (I hesitate to go that far in this forum. However, I am willing to share the simulation. It runs on a simulator available at no cost running on Windows.)

It's not a free lunch. An 800W power converter will require parts costing more money to get the performance left on the table by Suzuki's insistence on using the cheapest solution. They may well have made the best choice for fair weather riders on stock bikes. But I think many riders would be happy to get a few hundred more Watts from a (maybe) $130 regulator replacement. For me, just going easier on my DL-650A's 3rd stator is enough to motivate this project.
 
#8 ·
Let's just say I'll believe it when I see it.
 
#11 ·
Missourians!


That will be awhile from now. I'm sure enough of this that I plan to partially productize for the first article. (A producible design with a printed circuit board and cost-effective component choices)
 
#9 ·
More Power, Less Stator (damage)

This makes sense and seems doable with modern electronics. Correct me if I am wrong but your plan is to design a smart regulator that is impedance matched to the output of the magneto. Since the impedance of the magneto varies with RPM the regulator would probably need that as input. The magneto naturally tends to operate at high V and low I thus you can reduce the current losses in the stator while at the same time extracting more power (moving to the peak of the curve) compared to the current system which is impedance mismatched, operating off-peak plus a dumb shunt (regulating output to 12V).
 
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#10 ·
yes, impedance matching

This makes sense and seems doable with modern electronics. Correct me if I am wrong but your plan is to design a smart regulator that is impedance matched to the output of the magneto. Since the impedance of the magneto varies with RPM the regulator would probably need that as input. The magneto naturally tends to operate at high V and low I thus you can reduce the current losses in the stator while at the same time extracting more power (moving to the peak of the curve) compared to the current system which is impedance mismatched, operating off-peak plus a dumb shunt (regulating output to 12V).
I think you've got the gist of the idea, for the case where maximum power is to be extracted. When less than maximum available power (at the existing RPM) is needed, the smart power converter will work off the maximum, toward the higher voltage/lower current end. This minimizes stator heating.

It is very useful to view this as you suggest, as an impedance matching problem. The magneto, for any RPM, defines a relationship between bridge output voltage and current, and the (-) slope of that curve (which is nearly a line) acts like an output impedance. The maximum power transfer will be (approximately) where the load presented by the converter takes a ratio of voltage and current matching that output impedance. (When the converter is operating at constant, controlled output power, its incremental input impedance become negative. When near maximum available magneto power, that incremental impedance has almost the same magnitude as the magneto output impedance, creating an interesting stability issue. That is partly why an intelligent controller is necessary.)

It is true that the converter needs to respond to RPM. I considered measuring it (via stator output frequency), but decided a technique used with solar panels is simpler. (See How Maximum Power Point Tracking works.) The idea is that the controller, which is able to control power flow of the converter and monitor output voltage and current (and hence power), alters demand to keep the input voltage near where maximum power is delivered. That's for when less power is available than what the converter is designed to handle. At the converter's power limit, the controller will simply demand what can be done without jeopardizing the circuitry, which will be temperature dependent. This way, the system will adapt to the particular impedance and generated voltage when running at its magneto-defined maximum and will automatically operate on the higher voltage/lower current end of the power versus voltage curve when running below that maximum (when the battery is charged and the loads demand less than maximum converter power, or when the converter is at its power limit.)
 
#12 ·
Big words hurt jacketslacker's head.....

I never pretend to understand electronics other than following instructions (preferably with pictures) but it sounds like you're gearing up for some serious experiments there. Have fun and share results when you get them.
 
#14 ·
My thinking has changed to the cause of the burnouts being on top is that is the place where the wires from each winding come together. The heat developed in the windings gets combined. The only oil that gets on the stator when running is splashed there.
 
#15 ·
naivety => failure


The first failed stator pulled from my 2013 DL-650A had a winding shorted to the pole lamination at the inside of the coil where the magnet wire was just wrapped around the corner of the stack. That was bad enough, as a moronic design choice. But not bad enough for whoever controls the production of the stators. The resin with which sensible motor and generator manufacturers impregnate windings was present in token amounts, and had not really reached the inside layer of the pole windings, where it might have prevented the chafing that created that short (at 12.5 months after I bought the bike). Looking at it, I had to wonder: What made anybody think this would work for long?

Regarding heat combining from windings where they join: I don't think so. Where they join is outside of the pole windings, and there is better heat flow from the copper (or solder) there than out from the middle layers around the poles. Furthermore, heat is not going to diffuse along the length of the wires. It is being generated pretty much uniformly along each wire's length; there will be no temperature gradient to drive heat toward the Y splice.
 
#17 ·
some representative figures

What follows will be of marginal interest to folks without some familiarity with electronics.

I've spent a few hours building, (checking) and running a SPICE model of the magneto and bridge rectifier. This is to aid understanding of how the shunt regulated system performs and to see what performance gains are possible with a load which optimizes current and voltage at the bridge output to get power from it at various levels.

Here are some results from the simulation which I will be using to drive the design of the bridge and power converter for a replacement regulator.:
===============
Bridge output power and loss terms at various bridge DC voltages

@ 1250 RPM (50 RPM below idle spec):
160W at 13V, 25W Cu loss, Id = 4.1 mean, 6.5 rms

@1875 RPM:
258W at 21V, 26W Cu loss, Id = 4.1 mean 6.6 rms

@ 2500 RPM:
443W at 23V, 62W Cu loss, Id = 6.4 mean, 10.2 rms (maximum)
406W at 27V, 26W Cu loss, Id = 5 mean, 8 rms
261W at 32V, 12W Cu loss, Id = 2.7 mean, 4.5 rms

@3750 RPM
709W at 35V, 68W Cu loss, Id = 6.8 mean, 10.7 rms (maximum)
413W at 49V, 13W Cu loss, Id = 2.8 mean, 4.6 rms
259W at 53V, 4.4W Cu loss, Id = 1.6 mean, 2.7 rms

@ 5000 RPM:
974W at 46V, 74W Cu loss, Id = 7.1 mean, 11.1 rms (maximum)
404W at 70V, 6.1W Cu loss, Id = 1.9 mean, 3.2 rms
260W at 73.5V, 2.4W Cu loss
(Next is for shunt regulator or series at full conduction angle.)
408W at 14V, 140W Cu loss, Id = 9.7 mean, 15.3 rms

Performance just gets better at higher RPM. However, building
a power converter to handle over 900W is challenging enough,
as no-load voltage approaches 200V (at 10,000 RPM).
===============
In the above lines, "at #V" refers to the bus voltage which would be power converted when above 14V and is equivalent to present regulator scenarios when at or below 14V.

"Cu loss" is just mean squared winding current times an estimated 100 milliOhm resistance. (This will later be refined, with little effect on the other numbers. Relative winding losses will not be affected.)

"Id = ..." shows stress seen by each of the bridge rectifiers. It is worth noting that the shunt and series regulators dissipate (up to) about 60W due to these terms. The series regulator will do so at full output power and the shunt regulator will do so at most engine speeds, whatever the load.

The power convert will likely run at 93-94 percent efficiency, so delivered output from the new regulator will be 6-7 percent lower than the figures shown at maximum (or at stated bridge voltage).

The parameters going into the simulation do not yet represent the range of values that will occur across build instances. They are derived from measurements, the service manual, and other sources that are good enough that the basic result is not going to change except for the precise value of maximum power versus RPM and losses.
 
#21 ·
===============
Bridge output power and loss terms at various bridge DC voltages

@ 1250 RPM (50 RPM below idle spec):
160W at 13V, 25W Cu loss, Id = 4.1 mean, 6.5 rms

@1875 RPM:
258W at 21V, 26W Cu loss, Id = 4.1 mean 6.6 rms

@ 2500 RPM:
443W at 23V, 62W Cu loss, Id = 6.4 mean, 10.2 rms (maximum)
406W at 27V, 26W Cu loss, Id = 5 mean, 8 rms
261W at 32V, 12W Cu loss, Id = 2.7 mean, 4.5 rms

@3750 RPM
709W at 35V, 68W Cu loss, Id = 6.8 mean, 10.7 rms (maximum)
413W at 49V, 13W Cu loss, Id = 2.8 mean, 4.6 rms
259W at 53V, 4.4W Cu loss, Id = 1.6 mean, 2.7 rms

@ 5000 RPM:
974W at 46V, 74W Cu loss, Id = 7.1 mean, 11.1 rms (maximum)
404W at 70V, 6.1W Cu loss, Id = 1.9 mean, 3.2 rms
260W at 73.5V, 2.4W Cu loss
(Next is for shunt regulator or series at full conduction angle.)
408W at 14V, 140W Cu loss, Id = 9.7 mean, 15.3 rms

Performance just gets better at higher RPM. However, building
a power converter to handle over 900W is challenging enough,
as no-load voltage approaches 200V (at 10,000 RPM).
===============
.
You are assuming that it will just continue to increase as the rpm increases - it will not because it saturates
 
#19 ·
The up and down action of the pistons will created enough pressure difference in the crankcase to pump oil six feet high out of the oil filler cap. DAMHIKT.
 
#23 ·
The up and down action of the pistons will created enough pressure difference in the crankcase to pump oil six feet high out of the oil filler cap.
Good point. What I meant is that the finned cooling tube wouldn't be subject to the 40PSI oil pressure like the oil cooler for example, just crankcase turbulence pressures. Perhaps "low pressure" isn't the right phrase but if you look at the seals for the generator access plugs or even the breather tubes (also connected to the crankcase) these aren't heavy-duty, high-pressure connections so I think a tube connecting the two generator ports won't be hard to make.

Okay, I won't ask ;-)
 
#20 ·
The reason the power dissipated in the stator does not change much
a) with engine speed - because it reaches saturation at a fairly low engine rpm; this is purposely designed this way, so that there is good power made at relatively low engine rpm. Most systems will be able to provide all the 'normal' system load current it idle, or very close to it; as the rpm is slightly increased, the stator will produce more current and that current is shunted by the Regulator to maintain the output voltage at its regulation set-point; as the rpm is further increased, the flux-density reaches a saturation point and regardless of further increased speed, the current will also be limited at this point.
b) with load - the reason it does not change with 'load' (i.e loads connected/removed on the regulated side of the R/R) is because of the shunt regulator - in order to remain in voltage regulation, whenever you remove load (say for example you turn off the headlights), then in order to maintain the regulated output voltage, that current (that would otherwise have gone to the lights) simply gets shunted instead through the parallel path of the regulator; & conversely when you add load, it reduces the shunt current when the system load is increased.
The current in the stator is essentially ALWAYS at the max it can generate and that current either flows through the load or the shunt. By fundamentals, any amount of current removed from the load MUST be diverted instead through the shunt by the same amount, in order to maintain the same output voltage.
That is why there is no change to the dissipated power in the stator, and hence generated heat, when you change the system load OR the RPM. Stator is running flat-out regardless of those speed or system load changes. Of course the power dissipated by the Regulator WILL increase as the system load is decreased, therefor IT will become hotter; the same applies to the Regulator heat dissipation as the rpm increases - except this is a fairly small rpm range as, again, it reaches saturation at fairly low engine speed anyway.

Series Regulators are a much better option to lower the power generated by the stator (and resultant generated heat), whereby the stator will only deliver the current demanded by the load.
 
#28 ·
Mainly, I'm posting so that I can follow this conversation as it develops.

I'm sure you've already found this, but over on theGSresources.com forum, a few members ("posplayr" is the ringleader) have done quite a bit of similar thinking and research.

I don't think they're working on a product -- a year or two ago, we discovered that there's an easily available series R/R available as a Polaris OEM part for under $100, so I think this was seen as "good enough" for the majority of GS riders, who just want a more reliable vintage ride.

That said, there are an awful lot of bikes using similar systems that would benefit from a superior product that could produce more usable power.

Very interested to see where this goes!
 
#29 ·
moving forward



Thanks for the pointer to some similar exploration of the topic. I've not seen it before; in fact I developed my own model of the generation subsystem because, in my reading here and elsewhere, nothing has really addressed the questions I had about performance.

I can see that the series regulator is good enough for bikes with competently designed stators and power draw requirements comfortably within the capability of the stator nearly shunted. That undercuts the market somewhat for a regulator that further reduces stator stress.

However, as you have noticed too, many riders would like to get more power for their added gear, lights, etc {a}, without the attendant problems we see in this forum regarding battery depletion. I think enough of those people are going to be happy enough to get half again or twice the power that a more expensive regulator will be seen as a bargain.

{a. A motorcycle customization and repair shop owner told me today that some of his customers run into difficulty when adding high power audio systems. }

Unless dissuaded or banned for it, I plan to propose a number of product feature alternatives here and see if I can get a sense of what people in the market for an improved generation system would like to see at an incremental cost which pays for the features. I have no hope of making any real money from the project, but I would like to get a product going as a sufficiently profitable proposition that it can be handed off to an established producer of auto or bike electronics, or given/sold to some person willing to make it part of a collection of little part-time businesses.

I'm finished with the preliminary feasibility work and am now amidst detail design for the power converter and packaging. But before I can finalize a schematic and begin PCB layout, I have to nail down initial features of a concrete product and an expansion plan for follow-on versions or add-on modules. So, I will appreciate feedback, whether constructive or critical.

Thanks for your interest.
 
#34 ·
More power would be nice, but I am pretty sure the consensus for the collective, would be to just have a long lasting and super reliable charging system. ;)
 
#36 ·
have and eat cake


As the irked purchaser of 3 stators for my Wee, I was originally motivated by the promise of longevity. Along the way I found that I could get more power AND be nice to the stator wire. (I cannot do much about interior windings not being bound by varnish, except to buy from somebody who better gets that necessity.)

I envision a modular product which has options for: (1) power output good for a stock bike plus a few non-trivial loads such as heated grips and which hardly heats stators at all; and (2) the same with an added module which delivers power sufficient to solve the problem for hard-core winter riders and still be relatively nice to the stator (compared to shunt or series regulators).
 
#37 ·
It is possible to get more power out of those stators. The regulator design is from mid last century, there's a decent amount (at least 40w ) to be gained by using a synchronous rectifier rather than a standard bridge for example. And if you can turn that into a switching regulator you'll likely get even more.

Pete
 
#38 ·
power flow options


Thanks for your comment and encouragement.

My plan is to use buck converters with synchronous rectification for all power delivered to the B+ DC bus under most conditions. (I may have a fallback option to a simpler power path at engine speed too low to power the engine and headlights and maintain the battery.)

I took a careful look at using MOSFETs in place of a conventional bridge rectifier. The best devices I could find which will tolerate the 170V open circuit voltage (with a 30V margin) would not get drop below what a set of good power Schottky diodes can do, at least not in package sizes or quantities (when ganged) consistent with packaging similar to the stock R/R. Since the DC input to the buck converters will generally be near 50 VDC or more, I've pretty much settled on some Schottky diodes for initial rectification.

I also looked at more exotic conversion technologies. I did an efficiency study for a Vienna converter in place of using a bridge at all, hoping to gain some efficiency from getting power factor close to 1. I could not even get an improvement until DC bus voltage got near 60V, and it was too miniscule to justify the added complexity of either: (a) 3 more power converters (comprising the conventional Vienna PFC) when cascaded with buck converters; or (b) a step-down Vienna converter architecture which, being novel, would become a really fun but risky project. None of the fancier conversion alternatives came anywhere close to yielding enough efficiency improvement to justify the extra component cost and space requirement.

Now, that all said, I am open to suggestions for other power handling architectures. I'm willing to discuss and reconsider presently semi-settled design decisions.
 
#39 ·
My experience is OLD, at least 15 years out of date. I looked at it in the abstract a while back but decided I had better things to do with my time than drag motorcycle electronics into the 21st century.

And just pointing out, the diodes in the existing regulators aren't Schottky ;), so even with that you'll gain usable power and have less power dissipated in the regulator. And they've come a long way in 15 years, 50V was expensive when I was doing this stuff :). Modern ones, 200v @ <$1 each ?. Life's too easy ;)

Pete
 
#40 · (Edited)
I'll add one tip, my main experience was really low voltage/very high precision converters - electroplating, but we also did some work on electrical systems worse than bikes - yes, they do exist. Boats :). It was amazing how much difference some simple L-C circuits on the DC out (both lines) and a diode to soak up those -70v spikes made to the durability of the electronics. Boats used a lot of (large) relays and the kick back spikes from those were vicious. On bikes you have similar issues plus really crappy electronics in things like HID igniters.

Peter
 
#41 ·
spike ducking

I'll add one tip, my main experience was really low voltage/very high precision converters - electroplating, but we also did some work on electrical systems worse than bikes - yes, they do exist. Boats :). It was amazing how much difference some simple L-C circuits on the DC out (both lines) and a diode to soak up those -70v spikes made to the durability of the electronics. Boats used a lot of (large) relays and the kick back spikes from those were vicious. On bikes you have similar issues plus really crappy electronics in things like HID igniters.
Thanks, Peter, for that tip and any others you offer.

I have not done automotive designs, but dimly recall reading about "Load Dump" and hellacious voltage spikes on cars' B+ bus. Immunizing the design against those transients is awhile off, but I'll be sure to do it.

Fortunately, it is a non-problem for the bridge and buck power converters. The FETs in the power converter(s) are on the other side of a largish (shunt) capacitor and the (series) buck inductor, and their body-drain diodes protect them against whatever might get past that LC combination, not to mention that one or the other FET is always on or soon to be on.

The issue will affect how the low-power electronics are supplied, in particular how their supplies are regulated. The power requirement there is quite low, so I expect transient protection will not prove difficult.

Would you consider reviewing schematics when I have them near ready for layout? (This would not necessarily be for free, but for a claim on some early unit(s).)
 
#46 ·
And that was before the days of high speed FET switches ;).

A LOT of that heat is caused by the current regulator shorting the stator windings rather than doing anything useful with the energy. That's why stators last better with series regulators but even those are pretty crude.
 
#48 ·
Ok I see a whole lot of incorrect assumptions that you've based your model around.

frequency: 3 * engine_RPM / 60 Hertz
peak voltage, open circuit, phase-to-phase: 60 * (engine_RPM/5000) Volts
Where are you getting 60 Hz?? The frequency is set soley by the number of poles in the generator (consisting of the stator windings, and permanent magnets adhered to the fly wheel. The bikes generator is an asynchronous machine so the frequency isn't fixed.

Gonna say you didn't use a scope to determine this frequency.


resistance, phase to Y center: 100 milliOhms
Y???? If you measured 100mOhms to the casing of the bike you have a shorted stator. The generator is wired in a Delta which is why the stator only has 3 wires connected to the regulator. The 4th wire is for a position sensor watching the fly wheel.

Also measuring anything under 3 ohms with a standard device is pointless. 3ohms and under is essentially a dead short.


This next datum is a commonly accepted value:
Famous last words.


The following datum is derived from the above, adjusted to yield available power when the shunt regulator is barely at the non-shunting condition:
inductance, phase to Y center: 1.2 milliHenry
Seeing as this is based on your incorrect assumptions above well nuff said.


For simplicity, and because I lack better data, I model the alternator's output voltage as sinusoidal. There is nothing in the design of its magetic structure or its windings which tends to generate a sinusoid,
Of course it's sinusoidal... the fields are traveling in a circle around the stator it's just not fixed frequency sinusoidal.

I'm not sure what your background is as you seem to have a fairly firm grasp of the basics of electricity as well as cursory knowledge of the terms, but your knowledge of generation principles is fairly shaky at best (at least based on the contents of this posting).

In a nutshell I laud you're efforts to try and simulate this but you really need to start from scratch here, as you made fundamentally incorrect assumptions to begin with. A point that should have become clear when you saw the results your simulation produced.

PS. Trying to model a electro-magnetic device using software not designed for this purpose isn't really going to produce any meaningful results.
 
#49 ·
tossing peanuts back to the gallery

Ok I see a whole lot of incorrect assumptions that you've based your model around.
Hmmm. Let's see about that.


Responding to my assertion that generated frequency is 3 * engine_RPM / 60 Hertz, Chilly asks and disputes:
Where are you getting 60 Hz?? The frequency is set soley by the number of poles in the generator (consisting of the stator windings, and permanent magnets adhered to the fly wheel. The bikes generator is an asynchronous machine so the frequency isn't fixed.

Gonna say you didn't use a scope to determine this frequency.
I have used my oscilloscope to measure the frequency as well as to observe the generated waveforms. The divide by 60 (Hertz) is a term which converts from rotations per minute to cycles per second. You can think of it as a conversion to rotations per second. Using traditional units tracking methodology:
1 (rotation/minute) / 60 (seconds/minute) = (1/60)(rotations/second)

If the stator poles were rotating, then what you say about what sets the frequency would be correct. But they are stationary. (Hence, "stator".) In fact, the frequency is set solely by the number of magnetic flux excursion cycles created by the moving permanent magnets together with how fast the magnet-laden rotor spins. This is where the "3" came from in the expression you quoted. I got the figure by observing that there were 6 distinct pieces of ceramic magnet material in the older rotor design and assuming that each piece was oppositely polarized with respect to its neighbor, giving 3 flux cycles per rotation. Since writing that, I have purchased a rotor for some experiments and found that it has 6 flux cycles per rotation. (The pieces must have opposite magnetization at each half.)

As for the frequency not being fixed: Yes, that is implicit in the appearance of the term "engine_RPM", also not fixed, in that expression. I never assumed the frequency was fixed.

In response to my assertion, "resistance, phase to Y center: 100 milliOhms", Chilly informs:
Y???? If you measured 100mOhms to the casing of the bike you have a shorted stator. The generator is wired in a Delta which is why the stator only has 3 wires connected to the regulator. The 4th wire is for a position sensor watching the fly wheel.

Also measuring anything under 3 ohms with a standard device is pointless. 3ohms and under is essentially a dead short.
I did that measurement using a 4-wire technique and it has been consistent among 3 different stators.

The term "Y center" did not refer to anything connected to chassis. Having now dissected two different stators and carefully examined a third, I can say that some are wired in delta configuration and others are wired in Y configuration, as the bike schematic depicts. If you look at the schematic, you will see that it shows the central coil connection not connected to anything else.


Responding to "This next datum is a commonly accepted value:
power available to 13VDC bus via bridge rectifier @ 5000 RPM: 380 Watts",
Chilly wrote:
Famous last words.
I do not understand your difficulty with this. Do you dispute the number?

Responding to "The following datum is derived from the above, adjusted to yield available power when the shunt regulator is barely at the non-shunting condition:
inductance, phase to Y center: 1.2 milliHenry" Chilly writes:
Seeing as this is based on your incorrect assumptions above well nuff said.
As it turns out, the inductances are a function of rotor position. As for the value, it is measurable and I have measured it since posting the above. It averages about half that figure, which makes sense given that the frequency is twice what I assumed from mere visual observation of the rotor. Correcting the inductance and frequency (versus RPM) figures yield the same results, which should not be surprising to anybody who knows was inductive reactance is.

In reference to my statement, "For simplicity, and because I lack better data, I model the alternator's output voltage as sinusoidal. There is nothing in the design of its magetic structure or its windings which tends to generate a sinusoid," Chilly instructs:
Of course it's sinusoidal... the fields are traveling in a circle around the stator it's just not fixed frequency sinusoidal.
The generated voltage is clearly not sinusoidal, and there is no reason based in the physics of the generator to expect it to be sinusoidal. (I have observed the voltage from 3 generators with an oscilloscope. It is double-peaked for each half cycle.) For it to be sinusoidal, flux coupling the poles would have to be sinusoidal. To a first approximation, the permanent magnet flux is constant and, as a flux reversal moves across a stator pole face, the coil for that pole has a constant voltage induced across itself. And since the pole faces occupy an angle less than what is spanned by the uniformly magnetized part of the rotor, each coil has intervals where induced voltage stays close to zero.

However, because the non-sinusoidal components of the voltage are at higher frequencies than the fundamental, and because the coil inductance (therefore) suppresses those components in the output current, the waveshape matters little except for this proviso: Power output relates to the average generated voltage, not its RMS value. So one has to take care that values measured with an RMS-responding meter are properly converted to an average (of the absolute value) without assuming it is sinusoidal.

I'm not sure what your background is as you seem to have a fairly firm grasp of the basics of electricity as well as cursory knowledge of the terms, but your knowledge of generation principles is fairly shaky at best (at least based on the contents of this posting).
I am an electrical engineer. I have designed a motor in my professional work, and spent months analyzing and simulating it, and derived the equations governing how it behaves electrically and mechanically. I challenge you to name any principle of generation which I have misstated.

In a nutshell I laud you're efforts to try and simulate this but you really need to start from scratch here, as you made fundamentally incorrect assumptions to begin with. A point that should have become clear when you saw the results your simulation produced.
The simulation has done much to help me understand how the present MC power supply performs and how that can be improved. What result, in particular, do you claim should have shown me that I had made "fundamentally incorrect assumptions"?

Also, can you identify any incorrect assumptions I've made not addressed here?

PS. Trying to model a electro-magnetic device using software not designed for this purpose isn't really going to produce any meaningful results.
That's quite an overstatement. The simulator does a good job of producing a numerical solution of the coupled differential equations represented by its interconnected models. If the composite model is accurate (or accurate enough), the simulation will be accurate (enough). In this case, I've created behavioral models using more elementary models readily available in the simulator. Since you know nothing about those models, you cannot know whether they accurately model the relevant physical phenomena or not.

That said, what software do you recommend, which is "designed for this purpose"? Please keep in mind that it should simulate the effects of taking power from the stator the way a bridge rectifier (or alternatively, a power converter,) would, in order to permit copper losses to be modeled.
 
#51 ·
I have designed the power (switching) stage, simulated it, and done the thermal analysis of its most-stressed components for a particular way to build it at a cost commensurate with the application and likely cost sensitivity. It remains a hobby project since my time is mostly committed to other purposes. Having a series regulator on my own V-Strom, and no need for a few hundred extra Watts from the generator, it is a very speculative endeavor with respect to marketability. Technically, to me and two other competent EE's with whom I have discussed the idea, it appears perfectly viable. The harder question is whether investing several hundred hours of time and thousands of dollars to develop a saleable product would produce enough return to warrant that outlay.
 
#60 ·
I don't know that it's unbelievable, just that it is easy to have that kind of variation tank to tank or overall with a change in temperature. It's hard to prove or disprove the cause of a small change like that unless there is a lot of data and tight controls.

..Tom
 
#61 ·
To answer one of the questions raised above, the 2014+ Vee does ship with a Shindengen series regulator. Going off the top of my head, it's the 845 or 875, something like that; essentially the same as the revered 775 except a bit more capacity.

I haven't had a Veek in my laboratory yet for inspection, but that still leaves the stator, rotor, connectors, and wiring as the potential weak points. The rotor magnet migration issue would be such an easy factory fix; anyone know if they've addressed this?
 
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#62 ·
To answer one of the questions raised above, the 2014+ Vee does ship with a Shindengen series regulator. Going off the top of my head, it's the 845 or 875, something like that; essentially the same as the revered 775 except a bit more capacity.
That's good to know.

I haven't had a Veek in my laboratory yet for inspection, but that still leaves the stator, rotor, connectors, and wiring as the potential weak points. The rotor magnet migration issue would be such an easy factory fix; anyone know if they've addressed this?
I cannot speak to the Vee rotor design, but expect the following improvement was implemented there too.

The latest rotor design, for DL-650 bikes (including the 2012+ model years), does not have exposed permanent magnets. Instead, there appears to be a solid band of ferrite which is only exposed at the edge (the one you can only see once the rotor is removed.) The outer ferrite surface abuts the rotor shell and the inside ferrite surface abuts and is mostly covered by another thin steel cylinder which fills a portion of the gap between the rotor and the stator poles. This structure is incapable of the slipping magnet phenomenon which plagued earlier versions of the rotor.