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post #41 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Schtromtrooper1 View Post
If you can post a link to the temp probe I'll get the same one so we can eliminate any differences between brands/calibration.
HYG: DIGITEN 12V Red Digital Fahrenheit degree Thermometer

I wired it to the same circuit as my volt meter. It has an open circuit board in the back and I didn't want it to short out on any metal so I taped it to my clutch cable not the handle bar (and no duct tape, lol). Here it is on first fire in my garage, ignition on engine cold. That is stator temp on the left, volts on the right.



I put the probe in the hex hole on the crankcase bolt access cover and wedged it in there with a piece of aluminum foil then taped it over with a piece of electrical tape to keep it from falling out.



So drum roll.... Here is what I got as far as measurements;

Test Run#1: Ambient Temp=58deg F, 20 mile freeway run at [email protected] RPM (I have the 16T front sprocket): 145F
Notes: This is with the stator installed as discussed above (shanked bolts, thermal compound) and the OEM R/R. When I exited to turn around the temps shot up to 163F. Idling in my drive way after my run (and when the radiator fan kicked on) it rose to 181.2F. The temps are very sensitive to air flow. While riding through a slug of cool air the temps would drop immediately then recover as I exited the slug of cool air. Here is a pic idling in my drive way after the freeway run;



Test Run#2 (informal). I did a brief shakedown run after my FH012 install. I wasn't really focused on the stator temp because I was worried about volts and the R/R but I did notice that at ambient temp 50F the stator temp was 130F on a 5 mile freeway run at [email protected] RPM.

It was a night run with a (nearly) full moon so that was pretty great but I was tired and wanted to clean up before closing shop for the night so I didn't let it idle in my drive way. I am going to go for a ride today (Sun) and get better numbers now that my new R/R is installed. I am not sure how meaningful these numbers will be, they are very sensitive to ambient temps and road speed. I have no way to record the temps and I think for meaningful results you'd have to record lots of data including stator temps, road speed, ambient air temp and calculate all kinds of averages & etc to show that the thermal compound and (eventually) a heat sink make any difference. I think realshelby had it right when he posted;

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Originally Posted by realshelby View Post
Might be one of those "fixes" that is hard to document as an improvement, but I certainly give it a thumbs up!
There is a lot of heat coming out of that crankcase and I am convinced that thermal compound + a heat sink will definitely cool that stator and (hopefully) extend its life, but its unlikely I will be able to prove it definitively with data.

Quote:
As for the differences in bikes, not much we can do about that but once I get my measurements I can mail it to a voluntary Wee owner
I look forward to seeing your data if you decide to continue. If others want to join in that would be great but I really think without recording data and calculating averages & etc. none of it will be very meaningful.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg StatorTemps1.jpg (87.1 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg StatorTemps2.jpg (76.9 KB, 111 views)
File Type: jpg StatorTemps3.jpg (90.9 KB, 197 views)

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post #42 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post


I put the probe in the hex hole on the crankcase bolt access cover and wedged it in there with a piece of aluminum foil then taped it over with a piece of electrical tape to keep it from falling out.



So drum roll.... Here is what I got as far as measurements;
Temperature data you take from that location will not show any improvement that you might have effected regarding stator temperature. The problem is that the stator is considerably upstream of that location with respect to heat flow, and so is the thermal resistance between stator laminations and that cover. The heat flowing from the stator is not a strong function of its temperature, so all you are measuring here is the temperature of the unaffected parts of the heat path under nearly identical heat flow conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
There is a lot of heat coming out of that crankcase and I am convinced that thermal compound + a heat sink will definitely cool that stator and (hopefully) extend its life, but its unlikely I will be able to prove it definitively with data.
Data taken at the magneto cover certainly won't prove (or disprove) the hypothetical improvement.

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Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
I look forward to seeing your data if you decide to continue. If others want to join in that would be great but I really think without recording data and calculating averages & etc. none of it will be very meaningful.
Anybody interested enough to go to the trouble of collecting stator temperature data should also be interested in getting meaningful data. That would need to be taken from the stator itself, (preferably at one of its windings.)

And, needless to say, to evaluate the effect of thermal compound, a set of before and after measurements, with other conditions held constant, is necessary. In the above, I see nothing like that.
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post #43 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
HYG: DIGITEN 12V Red Digital Fahrenheit degree Thermometer

I wired it to the same circuit as my volt meter. It has an open circuit board in the back and I didn't want it to short out on any metal so I taped it to my clutch cable not the handle bar (and no duct tape, lol). Here it is on first fire in my garage, ignition on engine cold. That is stator temp on the left, volts on the right.



I put the probe in the hex hole on the crankcase bolt access cover and wedged it in there with a piece of aluminum foil then taped it over with a piece of electrical tape to keep it from falling out.



So drum roll.... Here is what I got as far as measurements;

Test Run#1: Ambient Temp=58deg F, 20 mile freeway run at [email protected] RPM (I have the 16T front sprocket): 145F
Notes: This is with the stator installed as discussed above (shanked bolts, thermal compound) and the OEM R/R. When I exited to turn around the temps shot up to 163F. Idling in my drive way after my run (and when the radiator fan kicked on) it rose to 181.2F. The temps are very sensitive to air flow. While riding through a slug of cool air the temps would drop immediately then recover as I exited the slug of cool air. Here is a pic idling in my drive way after the freeway run;



Test Run#2 (informal). I did a brief shakedown run after my FH012 install. I wasn't really focused on the stator temp because I was worried about volts and the R/R but I did notice that at ambient temp 50F the stator temp was 130F on a 5 mile freeway run at [email protected] RPM.

It was a night run with a (nearly) full moon so that was pretty great but I was tired and wanted to clean up before closing shop for the night so I didn't let it idle in my drive way. I am going to go for a ride today (Sun) and get better numbers now that my new R/R is installed. I am not sure how meaningful these numbers will be, they are very sensitive to ambient temps and road speed. I have no way to record the temps and I think for meaningful results you'd have to record lots of data including stator temps, road speed, ambient air temp and calculate all kinds of averages & etc to show that the thermal compound and (eventually) a heat sink make any difference. I think realshelby had it right when he posted;



There is a lot of heat coming out of that crankcase and I am convinced that thermal compound + a heat sink will definitely cool that stator and (hopefully) extend its life, but its unlikely I will be able to prove it definitively with data.



I look forward to seeing your data if you decide to continue. If others want to join in that would be great but I really think without recording data and calculating averages & etc. none of it will be very meaningful.
I just ordered the digital thermometer and Amazonsays I should get it Tuesday. Outdoor temps here are about the same in the morning here, so that should be a good comparison. I have 16/43 gearing so my rpms should be about 5000rpm. I'll take a few temps with the IR thermometer tonight just because I'm impatient but will confirm later when I get the one from Amazon.
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post #44 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 03:00 PM
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There is no proof yet this is "new and improved", perhaps a question mark in the title is appropriate?

BRIAN "GO Buckeyes, GO Wildcats"!

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post #45 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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There is no proof yet this is "new and improved", perhaps a question mark in the title is appropriate?
I did include a disclaimer in my original post!

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Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
Okay, there you go that is my new and improved stator install. As always, use at your own risk, YMMV, benefits may only exist in my mind.

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post #46 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trepidator View Post
Temperature data you take from that location will not show any improvement that you might have effected regarding stator temperature. The problem is that the stator is considerably upstream of that location with respect to heat flow, and so is the thermal resistance between stator laminations and that cover. The heat flowing from the stator is not a strong function of its temperature, so all you are measuring here is the temperature of the unaffected parts of the heat path under nearly identical heat flow conditions.
You need to get your head out of... your books... and go look at a stator mount in a side case. Significant heat is conducted out of the stator by the mount, into the side case and into the air. That much is proven by the data I've already posted since the temps are very sensitive to ambient temp and road speed. As I stated in my original post, if that mount was beefier and conducted more heat then I doubt stators would be so prone to fail (and no I can't prove that but its based on my engineering judgment and experience).

That access cover screws right into the base of the mount, it is physically and thermally part of the mount, so it is a direct connection to the mount temp and an indirect measure of the stator temps. That's the best I can do unless you want to fund a research project. Also, look at the IR photo posted above and explain to me why the access cover is significantly hotter than the surrounding case. The thermal resistance of laminations & etc. are irrelevant because those are all properties of the stator regardless of how it is cooled. If thermal compound (on the interface of the stator/mount and on shanked bolts) improve the thermal conductivity out of the stator it has to reduce the temp of the stator. A heat sink will then dump even more of that heat into the air, further reducing stator temps. Basic physics.

Quote:
Data taken at the magneto cover certainly won't prove (or disprove) the hypothetical improvement.
I already conceded that point in post #41 but not for the reasons you cite. Nevertheless, based on everything I know about thermodynamics, heat conduction and basic physics I think thermal compound plus a heat sink on the crankcase bolt access cover must lower average operating stator temps. Whether that is enough to spare the stators from frying is unknown but this is a simple cheap mod that *probably* helps.
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post #47 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
You need to get your head out of... your books...
Clever, but irrelevant. You need to develop some appreciation for how practical physics, as can be found explained in books, promotes understanding complex, real systems. In my own work analyzing and manipulating heat flow in electronic systems, neglecting heat flow theory would have been irresponsible and would have produced poor results.

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Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
and go look at a stator mount in a side case. Significant heat is conducted out of the stator by the mount, into the side case and into the air. That much is proven by the data I've already posted since the temps are very sensitive to ambient temp and road speed. As I stated in my original post, if that mount was beefier and conducted more heat then I doubt stators would be so prone to fail (and no I can't prove that but its based on my engineering judgment and experience).
I've already looked at the stator mount, several times. In fact, most recently I looked at it (while replacing the clutch pushrod) soon after seeing your idea to use heatsink goo in that joint. It is perfectly obvious that heat flows from the stator windings to ambient mainly through that cover.

Nobody is contesting the idea that reducing stator winding temperature would increase its longevity. The fundamental problem is that Suzuki (or the magneto designer they used) has elected to run that #18 AWG wire at a current such that there is only about 135 circular mils per Amp. This is less than half the area at the bottom end of the range used in most applications of magnet wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
That access cover screws right into the base of the mount, it is physically and thermally part of the mount, so it is a direct connection to the mount temp and an indirect measure of the stator temps.
The cover's temperature is, indeed, a proxy for the temperature of what is thermally connected to it. The problem I tried (unsuccessfully) to bring to light is revealed when one attempts to decide how good a proxy it is for stator temperature. Obviously, those temperatures are related, and if that relation stayed constant the cover temperature could be used to assess improvement (reduction) in stator heating. But the whole point of your heatsink goo application is to change the relation between the two temperatures, to bring them closer together by improving thermal conductivity.

You brought out this cover temperature measurement in the context of applying heatsink goo to the stator-cover joint, implying some relevance. But all that measurement can show in your case is what is already perfectly obvious, that heat flows from the stator to the cover. (Now, if a series R/R was installed, that temperature would become interesting. More interesting would be the temperature difference from the center to outside edge of the cover, as that would be a decent measure for the amount of heat flow.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
That's the best I can do unless you want to fund a research project. Also, look at the IR photo posted above and explain to me why the access cover is significantly hotter than the surrounding case. The thermal resistance of laminations & etc. are irrelevant because those are all properties of the stator regardless of how it is cooled. If thermal compound (on the interface of the stator/mount and on shanked bolts) improve the thermal conductivity out of the stator it has to reduce the temp of the stator. A heat sink will then dump even more of that heat into the air, further reducing stator temps. Basic physics.
The reason I mentioned thermal resistance, of the stator-to-cover connection in particular, is that it is relevant when considering the meaning of the temperature measurements at the cover. That, too, is basic physics.

What do you see as the likely effect on cover temperature of adding your heatsink goo? And, with your "basic physics" firmly in mind, why?

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Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidator View Post
Data taken at the magneto cover certainly won't prove (or disprove) the hypothetical improvement.
I already conceded that point in post #41 but not for the reasons you cite.
What you said was, "[I]ts [sic] unlikely I will be able to prove it definitively with data." That does not concede the point at all, and the fact that you've taken to attempting to educate me away from using my physics books and pretending I've overlooked the stator-cover thermal connection suggests you do not even get the point.

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Originally Posted by dmfdmf View Post
Nevertheless, based on everything I know about thermodynamics, heat conduction and basic physics I think thermal compound plus a heat sink on the crankcase bolt access cover must lower average operating stator temps. Whether that is enough to spare the stators from frying is unknown but this is a simple cheap mod that *probably* helps.
In this discussion, that's a red herring. Whether that goo helps or not cannot be discovered by measuring cover temperature.
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post #48 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 09:18 PM
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This is becoming a cock measuring contest now, although I appreciate the experience/education/expertise....way beyond my comprehension. I will just buy another damn bike and part mine out if I have stator failures, just too many other bikes out there which I also like. I am not much of a tinkerer or big on experimentation, but I appreciate and thank those that are.

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post #49 of 69 Old 02-12-2017, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trepidator View Post
I've already looked at the stator mount, several times. In fact, most recently I looked at it (while replacing the clutch pushrod) soon after seeing your idea to use heatsink goo in that joint. It is perfectly obvious that heat flows from the stator windings to ambient mainly through that cover.
Hmmm. In my service manual you don't have to remove the side case to replace the clutch pushrod or seal.

Quote:
Nobody is contesting the idea that reducing stator winding temperature would increase its longevity.
Agreed. But I would add, reducing the temp of the stator core implies lower winding temps.

Quote:
The fundamental problem is that Suzuki (or the magneto designer they used) has elected to run that #18 AWG wire at a current such that there is only about 135 circular mils per Amp. This is less than half the area at the bottom end of the range used in most applications of magnet wire.
I am sure they had their reasons. But you keep wanting to cast this as an electrical engineering design exercise and it is not. We don't get to change anything regarding the design of the stator wiring, B & E flux, magnet strengths, coating materials, ad infinitum. Its a done deal for us riders so we can only modify the system as is. Perhaps if you designed this generator there would be no failures but you didn't work for Suzuki at the time.

Quote:
The cover's temperature is, indeed, a proxy for the temperature of what is thermally connected to it.
Indeed.

Quote:
The problem I tried (unsuccessfully) to bring to light is revealed when one attempts to decide how good a proxy it is for stator temperature. Obviously, those temperatures are related, and if that relation stayed constant the cover temperature could be used to assess improvement (reduction) in stator heating.
Not true. The relation doesn't have to be a constant they just have to be correlated which they are certainly are.

Quote:
But the whole point of your heatsink goo application is to change the relation between the two temperatures, to bring them closer together by improving thermal conductivity.
Sort of true but not my point, that would be a side effect, and the way you state it you are reversing cause and effect. The stator is primarily cooled by conduction to oil and to the side case (we can ignore radiative cooling). For any given operating point, if I improve the conduction of heat into the side case (all else held the same) the temp of the stator must go down.

Quote:
You brought out this cover temperature measurement in the context of applying heatsink goo to the stator-cover joint, implying some relevance. But all that measurement can show in your case is what is already perfectly obvious, that heat flows from the stator to the cover.(Now, if a series R/R was installed, that temperature would become interesting.
You can't have it both ways, claiming it has relevance to prove the series R/R is lowering stator temperature but has no significance for proving that stator must run cooler if the side case extracts more heat (i.e. gets hotter). Proving the series reg lowers temp is a simple measurement (its been done, the case is closed), proving increased heat flow in my plan is complicated (see below) but it is just as real and just as valid of an approach.

Quote:
More interesting would be the temperature difference from the center to outside edge of the cover, as that would be a decent measure for the amount of heat flow.
The IR photo shows exactly that. There is a color-code-to-temp conversion chart to the right of the graph. The photo also shows the crankcase bolt cover is significantly hotter than the rest of the side case. You haven't explained how that is possible.

Quote:
The reason I mentioned thermal resistance, of the stator-to-cover connection in particular, is that it is relevant when considering the meaning of the temperature measurements at the cover. That, too, is basic physics. What do you see as the likely effect on cover temperature of adding your heatsink goo? And, with your "basic physics" firmly in mind, why?
I've stated my argument on this multiple times in my original thread and in my replies. It is the primary context of this discussion and a context you keep dropping to discuss electrical engineering design questions. If you still don't get it reread it if you must, I'm not going spoon feed you.

Quote:
What you said was, "it is unlikely I will be able to prove it definitively with data." That does not concede the point at all, and the fact that you've taken to attempting to educate me away from using my physics books and pretending I've overlooked the stator-cover thermal connection suggests you do not even get the point.
Yes, it does. Your point was I won't be able to validate my plan measuring side case temps. Your original argument was that they are uncorrelated and can't demonstrate what I claim because I am not directly measuring wire temp but, as I mentioned, our reasons are different.

Quote:
Whether that goo helps or not cannot be discovered by measuring cover temperature.
I absolutely disagree with you here because I have first-hand knowledge of how its done. I have been lead engineer on this exact type of engineered monitoring system. I used to design and install nuclear reactor feedpump diagnostic equipment that would (primarily) monitor temp and vibration of various components many of which we could not measure directly but had to be monitored "by proxy". Some of the proxy chains I have monitored were far longer and more complicated that this simple example so I have absolute confidence that meaningful data about the stator temp can be derived from the access cap temp. I know it can be done. The reason I say that just measuring the access cap temp can't help is it takes tons of data over long periods of time with a high-quality baseline. And the data has to be analyzed statistically for trends and correlations to infer the status of critical components.

To apply these principles to this case I would need to take a completely stock bike and monitor it for months across a variety of operating conditions. The bare minimum would be a database of road speed, ambient temp and access cap temp. This would be the base line from which I could statistically estimate the average heat flow out of that access cap or side case. Repeat the experiment with a modified bike and the case would be proved - average heat flow would have to go up (and by implication stator temps down) because the thermal compound and a heat sink have improved the conduction of heat out of the stator. (How much of a difference and whether it would spare the stator or not are completely separate questions).

In any case, this all getting a bit ridiculous since neither I nor anyone else is going to do such a test. Moreover, as you suggested, it would be easier and more informative to just stick the thermocouple directly to the stator wire and get direct measurements (they aren't radioactive, lol). But I am not going do that test either because I am not interested in proving this one way or the other. From basic principles I know that thermal compound and a heat sink will, at minimum, move the system in the right thermal direction and that is enough for me. Moreover, I have spent less than $20 and had fun hooking up the temp sensor and thinking about this and all that it entails. I am not posting to convince anyone to do this if they think it is a dumb idea or a waste of time. I think its sparked some interesting discussions and people have even commented as much. If you are happy with the series R/R and think my idea is dumb then commit to your decision and move on.

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post #50 of 69 Old 02-13-2017, 12:58 AM
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So...I tested my cover temperature after a 30min highway jaunt at 70-75mph and 5k rpm most of the way and it came out to 162 degrees with an outside temp of 70 degrees, using a currently calibrated IR thermometer. I will warm it up at idle this morning and get an idle temp.

And, FWIW I appreciate your experiment and look forward to the results. No one knows everything, including engineers, but we can learn through experimentation.
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