Engine Vibration - cure for the clutch basket chudder - Stromtrooper Forum : Suzuki V-Strom Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 17 Old 03-02-2013, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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Engine Vibration - cure for the clutch basket chudder

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DL1000 Clutch Basket Damper Refurbishment to cure the vibrating "chudder"


Two SV1000's I had from new some years ago started with this annoying engine vibration within 5,000 miles of delivery. It was in all gears and throttle positions as the engine passed from 3,000 rpm to 4,000 rpm. Such a vibration should not be there, even in a 1000cc Vtwin and I was determined not to accept dealerships claims that, "its just a characteristic of the engine sir". The vibrations in my second bike worsened as the miles built and I became convinced it was down to some deterioration in either the crankshaft bearings or primary drive torsion damper built into the clutch basket. The first bike also had a loud knock at idle which I thought was part of the vibration. The second bike was much less affected.

Back in 2007 some SV owners in Australia experimented with spacers/washers on the springs or even welded their dampers solid and some replaced the springs but with less than conclusive results. With a good few years of vehicle transmission engineering and design under my belt I then set out to prove what was wrong for myself. No way could I believe a respected engine manufacturer like Suzuki could get something so wrong. Took well over a years testing and prototyping to finally prove the torsion damper in our clutch baskets could be made to work as the engine designer had first intended. In fact a whole lot better than it was when new. The vibrations were gone for good! The loud knock at idle turned out to be something else thats talked about here in another thread. https://www.stromtrooper.com/v-strom-...und-fixed.html

When I came across owners on DL forums with much the same issues as the SV's I made a very open offer to modify a few baskets for them. Ten volunteers soon sent baskets here in early 2010 which we started to get out on the road by early March. Without exception the reports from these owners (complete strangers before sending their baskets) were all very positive. "it's like I got a new bike" and "now my engine behaves like it always should have from new". It soon became clear the modification of a bikes existing basket was better than a new replacement. The rest is history and owners shipped DL1000 and SV1000 baskets to me from all over the world. Owners always write to say how it's improved their enjoyment of the bike.

May 2010 - One of the first owners to report on the sharealike modification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientMariner View Post
My original (old style) basket with 50,838 miles was beginning to embarrass me. I was leaning more and more toward the elegant Wee as the '03 V got coarser and coarser.

The Sharealike-modified clutch basket arrived Yesterday. The Vstrom went on a short circuit around town this evening. It doesn't feel like a 4-cyl, but it feels healthy like a V-twin should. No more hideous clatter and shake. I got it into 6th gear in town with no misbehavior. I like it. It probably (?) feels like it would have if I'd put in a new basket. The promise that this modified basket won't start shuddering in 2-5K miles like the OEM item makes it worth the wait and few extra bucks. The worst part of the job was scraping the old clutch cover gasket off.

It shifts slicker'n snot, but I think that's more the fresh oil than the clutch basket. I put some Rotella T 15W-40 dino oil in. I figured with the engine having stood open in the garage for a couple of weeks, it's best to flush it out and put in a new filter after a hundred miles or less. Then I'll go back with Amsoil synthetic.



The only parts I changed were the cover gasket, pump O-ring, and staked nut. All disks measured OK and the bearings seemed fine. The loose springs rattled in the modified basket, proving yet again that insufficient spring compression is not the problem.
That's the introduction. Well more of a re-introduction as the inventors showcase is no longer easy to find on this forum. In fact it seems to be closed to all but time served members. I hope to find the time to post the descriptions, movies and pictures of the problems going on inside the damper (clutch basket) and fully explain the issues in there.

New owners can use as resource to help diagnose if their clutch has the chudder - both while riding and once stripped for inspection and rectification.

After that I hope to show how the modification is performed. Information for owners interested in how to do their own modification will also be available. Only recommended for those with the equipment and experience and if I have the time to support going on. Modified baskets to my design are running in sixteen different countries so far.

Idea is to keep this "invention thread" as informative as possible for those who follow in years to come. I hope everything will be covered in what's posted later. Need to get the DL and SV communities as self sufficient as they can be in sorting out this issue. Suzuki have not come up with a fixed basket even for the current bikes.

Svman aka sharealike many other places.
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Last edited by svman; 03-24-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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post #2 of 17 Old 03-02-2013, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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How to diagnose if your engine vibration is the clutch basket damper

How to diagnose if your engine vibration is the clutch basket damper.

The vibration has been given a name by many as it's a combination of a Shudder and a Chatter so known a CHUDDER. The last thing I want to do is scare every owner into thinking their bike must have this or is bound to get it one day. There is no evidence to support this. Purpose of my contribution is to help those who do have, or suspect they have the problem to identify it, understand it and then decide if they need to get it sorted out. If you are up against this suspected chudder then read on.

Over time and a hundred and fifty modifications, where I went through the diagnosis with owners and then stripped their baskets myself, I have found there are two distinct stages. The first will be present in some bikes after only 5,000 miles and becomes a real problem by as little as 15,000 miles. The second and more severe stage two chudder seldom shows before 15,000 and some owners told me it came on following a long sustained high speed run. The average mileage of the first one hundred and fifty clutch baskets stripped and modified is only 18,000 miles. The spread of mileages being from 8,000 miles right up to around the 50,000 mile mark. Revised as over the last year many with only 5,000 miles have reported major improvements in refinement following the work.

Stage One - The symptoms are a noise and vibration felt throught the footrests, handlebars and frame. It's in all gears as you pass through the 3,000 to 4,000 rpm range and is often at its most severe at some point near the middle of this range. A few owners also report it starts up just below 3,000rpm with a reduction before starting again as they pass 3,300 rpm and upwards. This stage one is likely to be there in all bikes to some very small degree and it's only those it causes enough of a problem in that might wish to fix it. This stage can also start up at much higher mileages or it's crept in so slowly over the years of ownership that it's only "discovered" when you swap bikes.
On the other hand, some owners can't believe it came on so quickly and start wondering if the airbox or tank has worked loose.

Stage Two - There is a more advanced version reported by some which makes the bike near impossible to ride at slow speed in first and second gears without having to slip the clutch such as when taking a hairpin turn or even a roundabout. No mistaking you have a problem when this starts up. These baskets often don't look any worse than those I strip at 50,000 miles. The hub in the middle of these can be extremely worn. Some report the clutch grabs as they try to take off from rest. Feels as if its taking of fine but snatches the bike forwards without warning.

Be aware that problems with the Engine Control Unit/Module settings (ECU/M), sensors and throttle vacuum balance will also cause very similar symptoms in earlier bikes. Seems more common in US models. Plenty of owners have fitted the clutch basket modification after they went throught a sometimes long and expensive process of eliminating these first. They write back saying the basket must have been the problem (or a large part) all the time and that many of the ECU and throttle adjustments and even dyno runs had little, if any, impact on this rideability issue.

Many owners have just picked up a used bike and it turns out that the earlier owners had just given up on it. Some signs of this are new owners being told to keep the revs above 4,000 rpm and bikes with lowered final gearing perhaps in an attempt to make top gear useable and keep the engine revs up in all gears. This also makes the time the chudder lasts for as you pass throught the range ever so slightly shorter.

HOW TO TEST FOR THE CHUDDER I don't make any claim for discovering this as it's widely documented on many forums and those who work with clutches in cars and bikes will try this as a guide to finding a problem.

Ride the bike up a long gentle incline and satsify yourself you can identify when the bike is about to vibrate. This will be as you accelerate gently at a normal rate from 3,000 to 4,000 rpm. You might need to practice but those with the real chudder probably have a sixth sense tells them just when its going to happen. Ideal might be third, fourth even fifth gear and a pillion to make the time the vibration lasts for as long as you can. Now just as the bike starts to vibrate you need to pull the clutch lever in just a fraction. Just enough to take up all the play in the lever and actuating mechanism. Not enough to make it slip. Just to the point where it might slip if pulled a hairs breadth more. If there is a significant reduction in the vibration then you have proved the vibration is caused by the clutch. Try a few more times in other gears and at different road speeds just as confirmation.

If there is little or no reduction then you might be looking to check chain and sprockets for wear or tension issues, engine and exhaust mount security and the ECU or throttle balance issues last of all. The rear sprocket carrier bearing and the cushion rubbers can also be worth a check as a few owners had this mixed up with the basket chudder. Some crash bars have also been known to cause similar symptoms so might be worth a check too.

The chudder is a resonance. Its very engine and clutch speed sensitive and is the weight of the clutch assembly flexing and rattling the gearbox input shaft slightly.
More in following posts when I find time to load pictures and movies onto youtube etc. Explain what's going on and why the chudder test has the effect it does.

Last edited by svman; 03-03-2013 at 11:56 AM.
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post #3 of 17 Old 03-02-2013, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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Pictures that will help those with technical interest to understand the problem in more detail.



This assembly weighs 10 Pounds or 4.5kg. It only needs the slightest encouragement from a failing torque damper to start it resonating at engine speeds of 3,000 to 4,000 rpm. The wear in the damper takes it "out of tune" so the resonance is felt throught the whole bike.

Here's the Torque Damper. Does a fairly decent job when new but soon goes off and creates the vibrations that resonate through the bike.


It's an excessive and jerky deflection of the damper at the critical engine/clutch rpm that causes the vibration.

Automobile engines with high compression and direct injection engines have simliar dampers fitted and work just like in the this manufacturers movie. Note our engines have three stages of absorbtion and final overload safety stops to prevent spring damage which only happens if they became loaded beyond their elastic limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfNjA...eature=related
A bit more relevant to our engines here in the first half of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=aRL_1KW79NA

Last edited by svman; 03-02-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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post #4 of 17 Old 03-03-2013, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Typical wear in the clutch basket found once out of the bike.

5 Basket loose on the gear to vibrate.MP4 - YouTube

Last edited by svman; 03-03-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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post #5 of 17 Old 03-21-2013, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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A second movie showing the basket rotating independent of the gear. This check can be made with the basket still on the gearbox shaft. Gear on the back of the basket would still be engaged with the crank and you can grab the outside of the basket (in fact the whole clutch) to turn it back and forth. This can also be seen and heard looking down the oil filler hole. Rock the bike back and forwards while in gear. The clutch basket will move like this and make a "clock" sound at the limit of each direction of travel.

Remember also my movies show the wear after many miles of running with the chuddering vibration. They will vibrate as you ride and make the clatter at idle with very little visible free play.


Last edited by svman; 04-14-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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post #6 of 17 Old 03-22-2013, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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A re-introduction of my clutch basket modification as the original inventors showcase is no longer easy to find on the forum.

It's this excessive and jerky deflection of the damper at the critical engine/clutch rpm that causes the vibration.

This play in the hub of the basket causes the heavy vibration in the 3,200 rpm to 3,800rpm range. It will be there in all gears and all engine loads.



This movement can also be felt with the basket still on the gearbox shaft and engaged with the crankshaft. It's the cause of the loud clatter at idle when in neutral and the clutch lever released.

NOTE - There is no need to remove the clutch engine/case cover. This movement can be seen and heard via the oil filler hole with the cap removed. Place the bike in second gear without the engine running and repeatedly push hard fowards and then backwards against the engine compression. There should be a very small movement of the visible clutch basket before the engine is turned. Anything more than this and approaching what is seen here is a sign the clutch basket damper has deteriorated. There might also be a loud knock at both extents of the movement. This is the same knock as demonstarted with the fingers in the earlier movie. A small tap sound is normal as the extent of forward travel - clutch rotating counter clockwise.

The movement of this plate inside gives the impression of slack or weak springs. In fact the springs are not weak or worn. I know of over 300 modified baskets where the same springs have been used and they perform flawlesly.


Gear and springs removed to show how loose the plate will be. This one vibrated violently after just 6,000 miles from new.


The springs and plate they should push against eat into the aluminum of the basket. Only happens in the direction of drive. Further creates the impression of slack or weak springs as you ride. But they are not.


Drew this up some years ago to show what can go on to break inside the DL and SV baskets. You would have to ride one hard for at least 10,000 severely chuddering miles to find the plate cracked, gear striking the safety stop and the rivets loosening off. NOT ALL BASKETS GET LIKE THIS BEFORE THEY START TO VIBRATE. My own SV basket had all this at only 12,000 miles except my very loose inner plate was not cracked. Suzuki revised the plate when the SV was launched in 2003. This included better hardening to reduce wear but thinned the section that broke. MY MODIFICATION REMOVES THE LOAD FROM THIS WEAK PART OF THE PLATE.
More recently (2011 onwarsd) baskets with only 5,000 miles have arrived here for modification that were reported by their owners to vibrate severly.

THE RIM OF THE LATER PLATE IS THINNER THAN THE EARLIER VERSION BECAUSE OF A CHANGE TO THE PRESS TOOL NEEDED TO INTRODUCE THE NEW BRACE.

BRACE WOULD PREVENT ANY PARTS OF THE RIM THAT MAY CRACK FROM GETTING OUT. SPRING LOAD WOULD BE DIRECT TO ALUMINUM WHICH WOULD WEAR.

ALL LOAD IS REMOVED FROM THIS WEAK AREA IN THE SHAREALIKE SVMAN MODIFICATION - not shown


No website or advertising. Just the forum and word of mouth between owners passing on the modification. Many found me after talking with other owners as they filled up.

Last edited by svman; 04-14-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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post #7 of 17 Old 03-24-2013, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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Is your basket a mark one or two?

View inside the basket.


MY MODIFICATION WAS DESIGNED TO WORK ON ALL TYPES OF BASKET WHICH ARE PRONE TO THIS CHUDDER PROBLEM. MK1 AND MK2 VSTROM DL1000, SV1000 ALL VERSIONS AND YEARS. LATEST 2012 VSTROM IS SAME AS THE ONE ON THE RIGHT ABOVE.

Last edited by svman; 03-25-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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post #8 of 17 Old 03-24-2013, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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More detail of the modification

Shown much of this before over the years and in all sorts of places - never before such a complete set all in the same place.

From top left. Re-engineered basket and re-engineered gear.
Bottom row from left. Re-engineered inner and outer plates. New high tensile setscrews to replace old rivets.
All other components can often be used again after fine check for tolerance and signs of damage.


New ground finish to hub of gear.


Where the new sharealike bearing - precision machined to match will run. - example of original finish to right.
Old rivet holes are drilled, tapped and counter sunk for new high tensile setscrews. Some copiers have drilled these oversize and used thread inserts. This weakens the posts as the basket is very thin where the posts meet the main casting.


Inner plate fitted to back of basket. Setting of exact position is done later after measurements.


Gear and Spring Set fitted. Position of each spring is key.


Dished Springs fitted. Look round the centre.


Fit Top Cover. Original case hardening is roughed up to ensure underside of the setscrews key into the plate. This area is often polished on older baskets because the loose rivets allowed the surfaces to fret as they chuddered.


Insert and tighten three high tensile setscrews and oil pump gear drive dowel.


Fit oil pump gear. The one thing that will only fit the right way round. Circlip can be fitted wrong.


Look inside to check component positions ready for damping deflection checks.


Measure damping deflection. Basket prevented from rotation while gear is rotated with increased loads.


Check the loading for each and observe the four phases of the torsion absorber working.


Strip after earlier test assembly. Adjust damping, deflection and phases based on measurements taken in above two stages.
Lubricate, rebuild, confirm adjutments are correct, seal to prevent moisture getting in and lubricant escape. Pack and ship back to owner.


This is by no means the complete process. Hope it gives some insight into the original sharealike re-engineered modification.
Only used approved transmission engineering and widely accepted methods for the work. Pays much closer attention to position and tolerances of each component than when new. These dampers can now be opened up and re-adjusted after the initial modification shown above. They can then be regarded as an easily serviceable item.
Well over three hundred modified like this running in bikes all round the world. Started offering to modify them to save owners fitting replacement baskets so they could rid these lovely engines of the chudder for ever. Enjoyed helping everyone sort out their bikes.
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post #9 of 17 Old 03-31-2013, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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A few years now since owners first ride reports on my re-engineered clutch baskets started to come in. Some refer to me as sharealike as I'm known by that in most other forums.

April 2010 Owner in Northern California.
"I just got back from a trip with over 800 miles on the basket I recently received back from John (Sharealike) and installed in my 04 Vee with 20K miles. Having the crappy chudder/vibration gone is to me the best upgrade that has been done to this bike. It makes low speed riding very pleasant and running it up through the rpm range significantly smoother. John has been great to deal with and has answered all of my questions and did a fast turn around. His work looks very "factory" and it is great to have this long time problem on an otherwise great machine solved".
800 miles later
"I now have about 1600 miles on the modded basket I received from Sharealike and it continues to preform as when I installed it. No chudder and very smooth throught he range".

April 2010 Owner in Nebraska
"The bike was hideous, embarrassing, at idle but not after the basket mod. I hear that idle hammer is a different issue. I guess my problem was all chudder? The improvement in vibration isnít just in the grievously affected 3K rpm zone but throughout.

A thousand thanks to Sharealike. The Vstrom community is indebted to you for your determination and your willingness to learn and evolve your solution based on that growing understanding. My hat is off to you, sir. Now, if only Suzuki would stop turning a blind eye.

A happy camper, I am".
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-14-2013, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
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picture worth a thousand words and all that - exploded view of the problem damper in the Suzukis.


exploded view of a complete clutch to explain where the damper sits in the whole sysytem


Youtube movie looking into the assembled clutch basket shown above from the left. Gear hub works loose in aluminum basket and the Inner Spring Retaining Plate clicks about. Please note this is a relatively extreme version so the movements can be seen. This bike must have ridden like a jack hammer in the 3,200 to 3,800 rpm range.

Last edited by svman; 05-09-2013 at 05:09 AM.
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