[Brockie]

So who produces a viable hybrid vehicle, and if not - why not? Theories, maybes, and one days are fine. Realities are often more difficult to achieve.

Are the hybrids you talk of those electric vehicles with a ICE as produced by some major manufacturers? So why are they not a sales success?

 

[RichDesmond]

All credit to Jon Edwards, a retired engineer who developed this EV charging machine as a experimental idea and as a result of his frustration of not being able to conveniently drive his EV from Adelaide SA to Perth WA.

His proposal was that if 14 of these machines were established at the service stations every 200km along the featureless Nullabor Plain from Clare near Adelaide, to Perth, (some 2,575kms) that EV vehicles could then conveniently cross the Nullabor, proving that long distance travel by EV was a reality.

However, by his own testing, he was able to recharge 10 EV's in a stated 9 hours. That is a very good 54 minutes per vehicle - adding 12.6 hours to the nominal 27 hour journey. The full explanation, with Jon Edwards comments is here: The diesel generator behind the electric car charging point « JoNova

I am going to speculate that being required to stop for 54 minutes every 200kms (or even 400kms, if that range is possible) during a long journey will quickly become frustrating to most and that for the foreseeable future EV's will remain a convenient short trip vehicle - keeping in mind that one must also then own a second vehicle capable of conveniently completing those longer trips.

What is really needed is a way of generating electricity while the vehicle is on the road.

You very neatly illustrated the points in my last post. Thanks.

 

[V-Strom Ry 2]

How else would electric vehicles be powered than batteries? I think hydrogen (or even liquid-fueled) fuel cells are going nowhere.
Super capacitors? They'd need to make even bigger strides than batteries have.

Battery technology keeps improving. It's really not that far, IMO, from being truly effective. Tesla is already getting acceptable ranges and charging times. If the cost (particularly) and weight of the battery packs can be reduced (I'd say by at least 50% for cost, anyway), e-vehicles could go fully mainstream. How that would affect our grid I'm not sure.

Which isn't to say I'm fully sold on the current move to favour electric vehicles, or that wind turbines, solar, and other "renewables" are a solution (or at least an effective one) to AGW (I'll leave the debate over that for another day).

I used to be a big skeptic of battery powered electric vehicles, but I think they're the future. Maybe not quite the present, yet, for me (and a lot of others), but I think it's where we're going. I won't miss dealing with the vagaries of internal combustion engines (maintenance intensive and prone to failures) and complex transmissions (prone to failure) in my transportation module (car or SUV).

I'll always love the sound of well tuned engine, but I don't get that from my daily driver, nor would I want to. I don't know if I'll ever prefer the whine of an electric motor in a bike over the sound of a real engine. I don't expect ICE motorcycles to likely disappear in my lifetime. Depends how long I live, I guess, lol.

 

[Dark Angel]

So who produces a viable hybrid vehicle, and if not - why not? Theories, maybes, and one days are fine. Realities are often more difficult to achieve.

Are the hybrids you talk of those electric vehicles with a ICE as produced by some major manufacturers? So why are they not a sales success?

In a word, they are.
I recently went and inquired about a new RAV4 and found out that not only is there a hybrid version but Toyota is getting more orders for them than for the non-hybrid variants of the same vehicle. Within 5 years you will not be able to buy a Subaru that ISN'T a hybrid.
People are always hesitant to adopt new technologies and there are always those who claim the world is ending because of those same technologies. Fear of electric grids was rife in the early 20th century and there are currently people vandalising and even setting fire to 5G phone towers, both out of stunning ignorance and fear.

 

[Macdoc]

Apr 29, 2020 - Toyota in 2020: In-demand RAV4 and Corolla help hybrids account for a quarter of sales. Toyota Australia's hybrid line-up currently includes the Prius, Corolla, Camry, C-HR and RAV4. ... To the end of March, Toyota Australia has sold 11,756 hybrids, accounting for 23.5 per cent of its overall sales.

Toyota in 2020: In-demand RAV4 and Corolla help hybrids account for a quarter of sales

Toyota Australia’s hybrid sales are continuing to go from strength to strength, with 2020 on track to be their strongest year yet thanks to two key models

www.carsguide.com.au

The industry is in transition and low oil prices distort the calculations for savings. The gap between hybrid and non-hybrid version is narrowing rapidly and the distance driven on EV only for PHEV is rapidly approaching the average daily commute.

If cities took the same approach as Copenhagen ....putting an 85% tax on ICE vehicles....change would be instant. It accounts for the damage vehicle emissions inflict on the environment and public health.

 

[Brockie]

People are always hesitant to adopt new technologies and there are always those who claim the world is ending because of those same technologies. Fear of electric grids was rife in the early 20th century and there are currently people vandalising and even setting fire to 5G phone towers, both out of stunning ignorance and fear.

I can remember my parents telling me of how the upset weather patterns of the day during the 1950's were blamed, by some, on the introduction of the jet engine. 😃
These hybrids have been around for years. Perhaps they are now able to provide a reasonable return on investment. I remember fitting solar panels the home I owned 10 years ago - but only because the numbers said that I would recoup my investment within 3 years. That makes a Tesla a difficult decision.

 

[Macdoc]

Do you actually have a point to make? People initially bought solar panels ( as my partner did ) and hybrids because it was the correct thing to do to offset carbon.

Both are now at the point ...especially solar ( and wind ) because it is the least expensive form of electricity AND is mostly carbon neutral. If the utitlities would quit stealing the electricity at artificially low tariffs

ww.forbes.com › sites › jamesellsmoor › 2019/06/15
Jun 15, 2019 - Onshore wind and solar PV power are now, frequently, less expensive than any fossil-fuel option, without financial assistance. New solar and ..

Even Forbes thinks so. Transition to carbon neutral will take a while and not appropriate for all situations but it is in progress and the constant sniping from the fossil fools won't change that.
People are voting with their pocket books as well as their concern for the general weal.

Renewable energy jobs are booming across America, creating stable and high-wage employment for blue-collar workers in some of the country’s most fossil fuel-heavy states, just as the coal industry is poised for another downturn.

Economics are driving both sides of this equation: Building new renewable energy is cheaper than running existing coal plants and prices get cheaper every year. By 2025, almost every existing coal plant in the United States will cost more to operate than building replacement wind and solar within 35 miles of each plant.

Renewable Energy Job Boom Creates Economic Opportunity As Coal Industry Slumps

Renewable energy jobs are booming across the U.S. and are forecast to keep growing - especially in the heart of coal country - creating new economic opportunities for communities and high-wage jobs for workers facing the coal-to-clean transition.

www.forbes.com

Australia could join in by upgrading its grid and provide both needed jobs and finally put an end to coal use for power in Australia,

 

[Dark Angel]

I can remember my parents telling me of how the upset weather patterns of the day during the 1950's were blamed, by some, on the introduction of the jet engine. 😃
These hybrids have been around for years. Perhaps they are now able to provide a reasonable return on investment. I remember fitting solar panels the home I owned 10 years ago - but only because the numbers said that I would recoup my investment within 3 years. That makes a Tesla a difficult decision.

Interesting that your parents had heard correctly, though not in the way you're insinuating. Human induced climate change was first postulated in about 1896. The jet engine isn't particularly special in this regard, it just happens to burn a lot of fuel and thus release a lot of carbon dioxide. Any other technology that released the same amount of carbon would be just as guilty.

 

[Brockie]

Australia could join in by upgrading its grid and provide both needed jobs and finally put an end to coal use for power in Australia,

https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/default/files/australian_energy_statistics_2019_energy_update_report_september.pdf

 

[Brockie]

In a word, they are.
I recently went and inquired about a new RAV4 and found out that not only is there a hybrid version but Toyota is getting more orders for them than for the non-hybrid variants of the same vehicle. Within 5 years you will not be able to buy a Subaru that ISN'T a hybrid.

Registration of "other" vehicles seems to be declining rather than booming.

 

[Brockie]

Oops. I just realised that I am no longer in the Arena. You guys will get me into trouble...... 🤐

 

[Dark Angel]

Registration of "other" vehicles seems to be declining rather than booming.

View attachment 272679

Hybrids are counted under "Petrol" because they still use it. If you want a full electric car, a genuine "other" on that chart along with LPG, CNG, and Hydrogen, you'd need to buy something like a Nissan Leaf or a Tesla. The Leaf makes a lot of sense for someone that only ever drives around the city, and that's a LOT of people. Not so useful for someone like me though, living out here in Butt-fuq Junction where the towns are small and the minds even smaller. Our nearest family that we visit is 176km away (in-laws) and furthest eight hours drive (youngest son in Bris-vegas). Even seeing the wife's doctor is 230km round trip. An electric car would suit my daughter's usage (work and back plus around town) perfectly though.

 

[Jimding]

Most hybrids will go only a relatively short distance on battery power. My sister traded in her IC Honda CRV on a hybrid RAV4 and get way better mileage. But it will be interesting to see what maintenance costs look like down the road. Essentially combines the issues from IC engines with those from electric vehicle, and adding the 'integration' issue along with them.

Very possibly hybrids may be feasible as a performance booster for IC vehicles, using a relatively small supercapacitor. Most cars use nowhere near their full power in normal highway cruising, so the engine for most purposes is oversized. Provide a parallel electric drive, with a minute or two of power available, and that might allow the necessary performance while using the IC engine to its capacity.

In that vein, saw that there is a 5000 watt motor that can be added to your bicycle:

5,000W electric bike conversion motor: Yes, it's real... and it's spectacular - Electrek

CYC makes the X1-Pro, a small conversion motor that has an output of about 10 to 20 times that of a typical electric bicycle motor.

electrek.co

Absurd for a bicycle, of course, but a motor of that size could add substantially to the performance of smaller motorcycles or scooters.

 

[RichDesmond]

Most hybrids will go only a relatively short distance on battery power. My sister traded in her IC Honda CRV on a hybrid RAV4 and get way better mileage. But it will be interesting to see what maintenance costs look like down the road. Essentially combines the issues from IC engines with those from electric vehicle, and adding the 'integration' issue along with them...

Don't know if it's still true, but for a number of years the Prius was Toyota's most reliable car. So hybrids certainly can be reliable.

 

[Dark Angel]

...

Very possibly hybrids may be feasible as a performance booster for IC vehicles, using a relatively small supercapacitor. Most cars use nowhere near their full power in normal highway cruising, so the engine for most purposes is oversized. Provide a parallel electric drive, with a minute or two of power available, and that might allow the necessary performance while using the IC engine to its capacity.

...

Like this?
Lamborghini's first hybrid production supercar will be its "fastest car of all time"

 

[Brockie]

That is exactly the Formula 1 model where under braking the car generates electricity to be stored in a battery for use when needed. Not exactly an economy exercise, but the idea could be adapted I guess.

However it is complex and costly, still using gearboxes, differentials and drive lines etc. I wonder if the locomotive idea of an engine to create electricity (supplemented by a solar paneled body and regeneration under braking) with electric motors on two wheels and with a smaller holding battery might be a more economical build?
In other words adding a motor to an electric vehicle rather than adding an electric motor, generator and batteries to an ICE vehicle.

 

[Dark Angel]

"

Semper Vivus
‘Semper Vivus’ – ‘always alive’: the name of the world's first hybrid car embodies a vision. In 1900, Ferdinand Porsche unveils his Lohner-Porsche. The electromobile with two wheel hub motors functions splendidly but still suffers from very heavy batteries and poor range.
With the Semper Vivus, therefore, Ferdinand Porsche in the same year combines a smaller lead battery with two generators driven by DeDion-Bouton combustion engines. The generators supply 20 amps at 90 volts to the two wheel hub motors in the front wheels and use surplus energy to charge the battery. Thanks to this hybrid technology, the potential range now stands at almost 200 kilometres. At the Paris Motor Show in 1901, Porsche presents the prototype based on which a small-scale production of the roadworthy Lohner-Porsche ‘Mixte’ hybrid vehicle would follow.
Having been further developed, refined and optimised, today's electric machines generate a level of power that bears no comparison with the output delivered by those original cars. While the electric machine on the front axle of the Porsche 919 Hybrid delivers 400 hp, the Semper Vivus manages only one hundredth of that figure."
Milestones in hybrid technology - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG

Then of course there's the Volt in more modern times:
"The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there, its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range as needed. When the engine is running it may be periodically mechanically linked (by a clutch) to a planetary gear set, and hence the output drive axle, to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation. Under the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cycle, the 2013/15 model year Volt all-electric range is 38 mi (61 km), with a combined electric mode/gasoline-only rating of 62 mpg‑US (3.8 L/100 km; 74 mpg‑imp) equivalent (MPG-equivalent)."
Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia

 

[Brockie]

So it sort of exists. How come they are not selling like hot cakes?

 

[Dark Angel]

So it sort of exists. How come they are not selling like hot cakes?

A few reasons. One of them is explained by the story of the invention of electric windscreen wipers.
Originally wipers were run by engine vacuum. They were unreliable in general and had the awful property that they would run slower and even stop under low engine vacuum, which is characteristic of an engine under open throttle ie going faster which is when you need to see far more than when you're sitting at an intersection idling. Mechanical engineers tried for years to solve the issue but consistently failed. One day a factory electrician offered to come up with something. Of course the mech engineers scoffed at him, what would a stupid tradesman (and an electrician at that) know about making automotive gear. The guy went back in with a design for electric wiper motors which proved far more reliable and functional than anything the mechanical engineers could come up with, and we still use the same concept today.
Electric drives are suffering from the same thing: people refusing to let go of "common knowledge". It's "common knowledge" that cars use a gearbox/transmission to get drive from the motor to the wheels. It's just "how it's done". It's also excessively complicated and inefficient compared to doing it electrically, but it's just "how it's done" and people don't like having something that's their area taken off them even when it's clearly better done a different way.
There's nothing new about using an ICE to drive and generator and then powering electric motors to drive a vehicle. Trains have been doing it for about a century. Before that diesel locos also had clutches and gearboxes by the way. Transferring the drive electrically is significantly more efficient and controllable than doing it mechanically, and far more reliable.
Back to the question though, why don't these few cars sell like hot cakes? The original hybrid Porché was shelved because "gasoline" was five cents a gallon and nobody cared about saving 30% by using electrics, plus electricity was still considered scary and overly complicated. The same thing goes today, people love electronic gadgets, but are afraid of "new" drive tech (that's over a hundred years old) because they don't understand it. Truth is they don't understand how a gearbox or transmission actually works either, but those are just accepted.
Another reason is that there's no real push from the manufacturers or governments to embrace technology because it's superior (eg VHS vs BetaMax) but rather only on what is profitable and sale-able RIGHT NOW. The general public don't understand electric vehicles and have a poor perception of them. Most people think EVs are all just golf carts and have no guts, and no amount of their favourite ICE powered drag cars being humiliated at the track by a Tesla with four people in it will change their minds.
The next reason EVs don't sell as well as they should is the stupid expectation that the infrastructure should somehow magically already exist in it's entirety. "But what if I wast to drive to Perth from Sydney! There's nowhere to charge it up!" is a common cry (with cities replaced by local equivalents of course), when that same person never travels more than 100km from their house. The truth is there are charging points in pretty much every major town and city from one side of the country to the other. Where I live in a town of 8000 there are two public charging points. "Oh that's not enough!" comes the next cry, when really those two are only for people visiting the town. If you live here you charge at your own house unlike filling an ICE vehicle where you HAVE to visit the service station to get fuel regardless. "But they take so long to charge!" is the next objection, meanwhile those same people park their car and spend an hour getting a meal or visiting the art gallery (our two points are near McDonalds and the local Visitor Centre, and at the local art gallery and Civic Centre near the local government offices) with their car just sitting there when it could be charging.
Yes, there are more than a few use-cases where current electric vehicles don't measure up, but almost nobody is saying we should be dumping ICEs immediately. The truth is that for most people, most of the time, an electric vehicle would do everything they ACTUALLY use their cars for with less fuss and effort if only they could get past their preconceptions and prejudices. A series hybrid, like the Volt, would cover even more of the population.

 

[Motorpsychology]

That is exactly the Formula 1 model where under braking the car generates electricity to be stored in a battery for use when needed. Not exactly an economy exercise, but the idea could be adapted I guess.

However it is complex and costly, still using gearboxes, differentials and drive lines etc. I wonder if the locomotive idea of an engine to create electricity (supplemented by a solar paneled body and regeneration under braking) with electric motors on two wheels and with a smaller holding battery might be a more economical build?
In other words adding a motor to an electric vehicle rather than adding an electric motor, generator and batteries to an ICE vehicle.

You just described the Chevrolet Volt, which is no longer produced. Its ICE only ran a generator which powered the electric drive motor and charged the battery. The ICE was not directly connected to the drivetrain. The Bolt is all electric and has a claimed range of 259 mi/417 km.