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Discussion Starter #1
We've all done it, gone into a curve to fast and ended up on the other side of the yellow line. Good thing there was no oncoming traffic. Here's a trick I learned riding my rode cycle (yes, the spandex kind).
You can TWIST(pull up in one side while pushing down in the other) the handle bars in the direction you want to go and it will give you additional turning power.
Don't believe me, practice it first on a straight away and you will see immediately what I'm talking about. This has carried me through many unfamiliar curves and I hope if you ever need it that it will do the same for you.
 

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FORUM GODFATHER.....R.I.P. PAT
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That isn't twisting the handlebars. It is countersteering. While you said pull up in one side while pushing down in the other, what you are actually doing is pulling the top grip back and pushing the bottom grip forward. That is countersteering and tightens the turn. You have to be turning the bars. No other movement is possible unless you bend the bars and that would not accomplish anything.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Meant what I said, not pushing forward on one grip while pulling back in the other but literally pushing DOWN toward tank with one grip while PULLING up on the other, it should feel like your trying to twist the handlebars. I'm sure your correct in saying this IS what us technically referred to as counter steering, now I know- thanks
 

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FORUM GODFATHER.....R.I.P. PAT
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You just think that's what you're doing. Sit on the bike and do the action you are claiming on the bars and see which way they actually move. If you actually move your hands in the direction the bars can really move, you'll stop wasting energy and use a lighter grip.
 

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Actually bicycles countersteer too. Its just that with some of your upper body weight always resting on the bars you can easily countersteer by shifting that weight. But it's still only the "steering vector" of that weight shift that countersteers a bicycle. As GW says, no need to push down on a motorcycle. Just (counter)steer.

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Discussion Starter #6
Then try it while moving.
I know your not actually twisting or bending the bars, it's simply a mental aid to do something that does not feel physically natural- that in a - oh my god - situation could mean the difference between keeping it between the lines or getting hit head on.
Even a old wolf can learn new tricks
 

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all you need to know

push left go left

push right go right

do NOT try and hold the bars in any particular direction at speed

at regular speeds =you guide the bike with force (push on bar) , unlike a car where you can HOLD the wheel and all will be well
 

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FORUM GODFATHER.....R.I.P. PAT
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Even a old wolf can learn new tricks
I'm aware it's a mental device to make a complex movement seem natural. I much prefer push left go left and push right go right. I didn't know until your last post that you knew it was a mental aid. I like my mental aids to describe the movement better as up and down don't properly describe the actual action. I put it in the same category as "weighting pegs", another bad description that causes confusion. The title, "When countersteering is not enough" is also misleading as the action described actually is countersteering.

Practicing braking and countersteering until the proper movements are in "muscle memory" is what prevents "Oh My God" events. If you have to think, chances are it's too late.

I am an old wolf, just turned 68. I did a paper on countersteering during my MSF instructor course in 1978. I hope to learn something new every day though and most days I do.
 

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I believe there is a YouTube video about Keith Code's(?) "Twist of the Wrist" that visually demonstrates counter-steering that, when done properly (as in moving the handlebar in the direction it can only possibly move), it is done with very little effort - one finger is what was shown, if I recall correctly.


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I'm aware it's a mental device to make a complex movement seem natural. I much prefer push left go left and push right go right. I didn't know until your last post that you knew it was a mental aid. I like my mental aids to describe the movement better as up and down don't properly describe the actual action. I put it in the same category as "weighting pegs", another bad description that causes confusion. The title, "When countersteering is not enough" is also misleading as the action described actually is countersteering.

Practicing braking and countersteering until the proper movements are in "muscle memory" is what prevents "Oh My God" events. If you have to think, chances are it's too late.

I am an old wolf, just turned 68. I did a paper on countersteering during my MSF instructor course in 1978. I hope to learn something new every day though and most days I do.

Greywolf, do you remember when the4 first "MSF" course was developed? I had no idea it had been around that long. I had my first course in '78 provided by US NAVY. back then, they threw a 2x4 under your front wheel while riding :)
 

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I don't know about when the course was first developed. You can ask at All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle
James, Axiom or Gymnast will probably know. We had people running over car mufflers and tires.
 

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I read in one of K. Codes books a simple trick that I have used regularly. Remove all presure from outside hand and just lightly push on other hand. It helps me not to tighten up and thus counter steering happEns naturaly for me.
 

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That's exactly why I have trouble with the mind trick of up and down on the handlebar. It puts forth the idea that force is required when it isn't. Countersteering doesn't require much muscle. Too many people are white knuckling handgrips, getting sore hands and wrists, complaining about vibration and flimsy handlebars. Quit trying to bend the bars and hold the grips like they are birds in your hands.

Edit: Countersteering to swerve as in evading an obstacle at high speed will kill the birds.
 

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Superbike School :: No B.S. Machine

Proves the hypothesis incorrect from the OP, like Greywolf has been saying -- it is just counter-steering.

Here is an exerpt
Bull Steering

Another recognizable error, resulting in excess effort used to steer the motorcycle, is the attempt to turn the bike by bulldogging the bars. An interesting combination of pulling up on one and pushing down on the other, rodeo style, like bull wrestling. No, repeat No, steering results from this. None, zero, nadda, niente. Riders who think they can twist the bike into a turn in this fashion simply have another false idea and get tired. The Bottom Line.
 

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...gone into a curve to fast and ended up on the other side of the yellow line.
In order to exit a turn correctly the rider must enter the turn correctly.

Try this (assuming a right turn):
--Stay wide, to the left on a right turn
--Lean your upper body into the turn. Lean toward the pavement. As you lean carry some body weight on the inside footpeg and your outside knee against the tank. This isn't "weighting the peg." This is carrying your weight after you lean your body. You can swivel your butt on the seat toward the inside to lean the body better.
--Turn your head. Point your chin at the turn exit to keep your eyes level. Look at the turn exit. Look over your right mirror. Determine your speed needs. If you can't see the turn exit, slow down!
--Brake and downshift as needed entering the turn. Don't coast with the clutch disengaged.
--Ride deep & wide into the turn to get a better sight line of the exit, or the exit and the entry to the next turn. Pick your exit line to avoid hazards or to set up for the next entry.
--Countersteer at your turning point. Push the right grip forward. Turn sharpest when you're going slowest. Come closest to the inside line of the road about 2/3rds of the way through the turn unless there is a hazard to avoid or a better entry to the next turn.
--If you need to turn sharper, countersteer harder. Do not flinch if you scrape your peg feelers. Don't chop the throttle, don't brake, don't yank on the handlebars. Do smoothly roll on a bit more throttle and perhaps smoothly lean a bit more to the inside.
--Roll on some throttle as you exit and as the bike's line is straightening.
--As you straighten, if needed, pull back slightly on the right grip
--The whole time your left arm is totally relaxed, hanging loose, doing nothing. One arm steering works better than two arm steering--your arms aren't unintentionally working against each other.

You won't ride across the center line.

For a left turn, everything is the same. Never, ever ride with your body across the center line. Give on coming drivers room to miss you.
 

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In order to exit a turn correctly the rider must enter the turn correctly.

Try this (assuming a right turn):
--Stay wide, to the left on a right turn...
To amplify a bit on this, the single most common mistake I see guys make is turning in too soon. A delayed turn in, pointing to a late apex, is the secret to smooth and safe sport riding.
 

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Good advise PTRider

If I may add to this. I try to ingrain this to the new riders I've helped. It sounds like the OP is talking about finding yourself going a bit too fast into a corner (there's the first mistake).
Try this next time you feel that "survival reaction" coming on. Look through the corner and drop the inside elbow. Most of the time the motorcycle can make it through the corner, just don't panic
Oh, & slow down a bit. Ride another day.
 

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--If you need to turn sharper, countersteer harder. Do not flinch if you scrape your peg feelers. Don't chop the throttle, don't brake, don't yank on the handlebars. Do smoothly roll on a bit more throttle and perhaps smoothly lean a bit more to the inside.
Not following the instructions above is what I think gets most people in trouble when they exceed their comfort limits. Natural survival instincts are to do just the opposite.
It takes mindset, confidence, and good practice to get comfortable doing what seems at first to be counter-intuitive.
None of this guarantees you won't go down anyway, but not doing so almost guarantees you will.
--If you need to turn sharper, countersteer harder. Do not flinch if you scrape your peg feelers. Don't chop the throttle, don't brake, don't yank on the handlebars. Do smoothly roll on a bit more throttle and perhaps smoothly lean a bit more to the inside.
It's worth quoting over and over and over. It can save your ass.
 
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