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Hi all I have recently put some Metzler Karoo 3 tyres on my 2018 1000xt. The question I have is does anyone have issues in mode 2 with the traction control coming on pretty much all the time with different tyres( they are the same size as original tyres). Thanks
 

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Yes I have just put them on it’s about 10 degrees C and dry at the moment. I know the tyres won’t be as grippy as full road tyres, just didn’t think the traction control would activate quite so quickly. Hopefully they will improve with a few more miles on them.
 

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I have run Shinko 804/805, and PR3's and noticed no difference in traction control function. Did you just put these on? is it still cold where you are located?
I don't think lack of traction with cold is the issue. I don't run those tires but even at -18c I don't see unexpected traction control activation and below freezing I run the TC in the most sensitive mode to give me more warning of lack of traction because of ice.


I would want to check that the abs sensors on each wheel are properly installed (since they need to be removed when changing tires.)

It may be possible that there is mold release making the tires more slippery (but I doubt that's the issue) and if so it should stop being an issue after some riding takes it off.

If not any of the above I would want to ask around if anyone else has had issues with that combination of tires and TC. It could be the tire profile makes enough change for the system to think one wheel is running slow enough that there is slippage going on.

..Tom
 

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I don't think lack of traction with cold is the issue. I don't run those tires but even at -18c I don't see unexpected traction control activation and below freezing I run the TC in the most sensitive mode to give me more warning of lack of traction because of ice.


I would want to check that the abs sensors on each wheel are properly installed (since they need to be removed when changing tires.)

It may be possible that there is mold release making the tires more slippery (but I doubt that's the issue) and if so it should stop being an issue after some riding takes it off.

If not any of the above I would want to ask around if anyone else has had issues with that combination of tires and TC. It could be the tire profile makes enough change for the system to think one wheel is running slow enough that there is slippage going on.

..Tom
The Karoo is a 50/50 tire though, I have Shinko 804/805 and if it's under 5c, TC2 and I come on to it , even 1/2 throttle the light is blinking. I do not detect ANY slipping, it feels solid but the light blinks. I'm also not sure how you could install the abs sensor incorrectly, it really only goes one way. It is possible though that they didn't remove it and smacked it with the disc. I never remove mine but I know it's there and I wiggle out around it easily but I could see someone thinking the tire is caught on something and pulling on it. I think that would generate an error though
 

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There must be something going on size wise that makes the TC think it is starting to slip. Perhaps there is a bit of difference in actual diameter between the front and back that, when cold, gets magnified making it easier for the system to think it's slipping.

That or those tires really sick in the cold :) (which I doubt!)

..Tom
 

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There must be something going on size wise that makes the TC think it is starting to slip. Perhaps there is a bit of difference in actual diameter between the front and back that, when cold, gets magnified making it easier for the system to think it's slipping.

That or those tires really sick in the cold :) (which I doubt!)

..Tom
They are a taller tire for sure, I had to buy a fender raising kit from adventuretech because they would rub onthe fender at highway speeds. Marked up my fender pretty good and i'm sure took some life off the tire haha.

I was out tonight messing around and found that in 2nd gear from 20km/hr at a brisk acceleration(maybe 1/3 throttle) the light is on all the wayup to 90km hr. I got no sensation that the tire was actually losing traction.
 

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TC2 is useless in my eyes. Maybe it works on wet roads sometimes, but do not try to use it off-road, all you will end up doing is repeatedly stalling the engine.

The tires are not necessarily the issue here, although of course, trying use street tires in mud with TC2 is going to end badly every time. :)

I have my TC turned off all the time these days.
 

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TC is working properly, the tire is spinning up and it's doing it's best to stop that happening. It works fine for me but I'm easy on the throttle and it rarely kicks in. I'll concede I don't use TC2 though even in the rain.

Riders on these big bikes complain of quick tire wear particularly with knobs on and that's why.

Just because you don't feel the slip doesn't mean it's happening, the classic was bikes like RD350's which hit the power band and picked up rpm VERY quickly. Hit a damp white line on one of those and there was a instantly a corresponding brown line in your shorts.

I don't think it's tire diameter, both the ABS and TC are self tuning which is why they don't come on instantly after you start the bike.
 

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The thing is, though...
Before the new tires, no TC light on. After the new tires, the TC light comes on. What changed? (Hint--the tires!). A damaged or loose wheel speed sensor would have the ABS light coming on either intermittently or constant, a damaged sensor wire harness would have the ABS on all the time. Is it possible to have slight rear wheel spin on accel and not feel it while the TC system is doing its thing based on a difference in measured wheel speeds with the new tires? Or is there a larger difference in tire diameters that fool the sensors into thinking there is a loss of traction?
With as many tires as Ive done on peoples' bikes through the years, Ive gotten into the habit of measuring the circumferences of the old tires before I deflate them, and the circumferences of the new inflated tires for comparison and dividing by 3.14 to compare diameters.
Seeing as how the TC is a function of the ABS system, TC diagnosis is done by jumping the ABS mode select coupler and counting flashes of the ABS indicator light.
Going through the ABS section of my '14 DL1000 service manual shows 25 flashes=CodeC1625=Wheel Speed Sensor Related Malfunction.
The very 1st item listed as a possible case is "Incorrect Tire Size", followed by "Check that the specified tires are installed."
Yes, tires can show the correct size on the sidewall, but have a different outside diameter, which changes the wheel speed sensor reading and trigger a malfunction light. Most of the cars TC and ABS systems I dealt with had warnings in their service manuals that a difference in tire diameters over 1/4 BETWEEN the tires could trigger a warning light.
in both ABS and TC operation the ABS control unit is looking at the difference in wheel speeds, be it by a wheel locking up during braking or spinning during acceleration.
 

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Yes but also in both cases those first few wheel revolutions after you turn the key on are used to work out what the ratio of front wheel to rear wheel ticks is.

I guess it could happen if you had a gravel driveway but I don't think tire size as such is the cause. Yeah there is a point where the auto-cal gives up but that's not intermittent.
 

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TC2 is useless in my eyes. Maybe it works on wet roads sometimes, but do not try to use it off-road, all you will end up doing is repeatedly stalling the engine.

The tires are not necessarily the issue here, although of course, trying use street tires in mud with TC2 is going to end badly every time. :)

I have my TC turned off all the time these days.
Just for the benefit of any newer riders or folks with little or no experience with TC who may come along and read this thread later... TC2 is absolutely not useless. In fact, I ride with TC2 virtually 100% of the time as I don't ride in dirt/gravel and I don't ride very aggressively. I've activated it a small handful of times when I was overzealous with the throttle and it probably helped keep things under control which is exactly what it's supposed to do.

In Bugzy's case, he says he rides off-road so that's a very different use case than street riding. So to say that TC2 is not useful off-road may be accurate.

I would absolutely not turn off TC completely if you're riding street and/or you don't really know what you're doing.
 

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Yes but also in both cases those first few wheel revolutions after you turn the key on are used to work out what the ratio of front wheel to rear wheel ticks is.
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My gut says it isn't doing that, just checking to see that the sensors are getting a reading. (But I don't actually know.) I

f my thoughts are correct, and the tires the op put on have enough difference in size between the front and back then it would explain why the system is "coming on pretty much all the time" when in mode 2 as it is more sensitive.

..Tom
 

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"Yes but also in both cases those first few wheel revolutions after you turn the key on are used to work out what the ratio of front wheel to rear wheel ticks is."

Sorry, no.
The ABS control unit logic has a set parameter for that ratio. That parameter is wide enough in range to take into account the differences in tire diameters--to a point. Outside of that range, you have a TC/ABS malfunction indicator lamp on with a diagnostic trouble code stored in the control unit's memory.

Many times Ive had vehicles come to me with a ABS/TC light on. The 2nd thing I did for diagnosis, after verifying the light on and retrieving the trouble code was to inspect the tires for circumference and pressure. The usual customer complaint was "My ABS lamp is on and I just got tires replaced." Usually it was the fronts OR the rears. All 4 changed with the same brand, series, and size, not a problem.

I never had to drive a car to get a TC or ABS lamp to go out unless it was after a repair for which the light came on in the 1st place. Once repaired, the lamp was on until the control unit received acceptable signals from the wheel speed
sensors. If all was a go, the light would go out. Or running a car in gear on a lift. Same deal on a motorcycle running the engine in gear with the bike on front and rear stands. The light would be on until the control unit judged the wheel speed sensor reading to be in the correct range. Doing that with a car on the lift with TC engaged would have the the engine bucking and surging, not revving thinking that wheels were slipping. Back on the ground, driving it would turn off the light as long as the ABS control unit saw what it was looking for.
 

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...
The ABS control unit logic has a set parameter for that ratio. That parameter is wide enough in range to take into account the differences in tire diameters--to a point. Outside of that range, you have a TC/ABS malfunction indicator lamp on with a diagnostic trouble code stored in the control unit's memory.
...
Thanks for explaining in detail! It is pretty much as I understood (but don't have the technical training you have to be able to explain in detail.)

This is a bit off topic: One thing I am still trying to understand relates to riders that have changed the front sprocket one tooth. There have been several people that have reported the TC light coming on much more often with the change. I doubt one tooth can cause that much wheel-spin to cause the light to trigger so much. Obviously the ECU knows engine revs but I doubt it takes the effort to calculate the revs vs gear etc and use that as an input. I wonder if perhaps those that changed the front sprocket also changed the tires as well and are having issue related to the diameter difference.

..Tom
 

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V-Tom, are these other people all riding Vstroms? If so, can you give a general year range?
It could happen depending on where the ABS control unit gets its speed signal from. For the front it could be the speedometer driven by a cable, or a sensor rotor.
For the rear the signal could be generated off the sensor rotor or a counter shaft sprocket sensor.
I can see how a change in diameters between the front and rear tires could trigger a light, but also can see how a gear ratio change could trigger a light as well. The rpm for a given road speed difference with a final drive gearing change could do that.
 

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V-Tom, are these other people all riding Vstroms? If so, can you give a general year range?
It could happen depending on where the ABS control unit gets its speed signal from. For the front it could be the speedometer driven by a cable, or a sensor rotor.
For the rear the signal could be generated off the sensor rotor or a counter shaft sprocket sensor.
I can see how a change in diameters between the front and rear tires could trigger a light, but also can see how a gear ratio change could trigger a light as well. The rpm for a given road speed difference with a final drive gearing change could do that.
IIRC they were 2014-2016 (17?) DL1000's. There are ABS sensor rings on both wheels and I've been told the Speedo gets its speed reading from them.
I could see the error if rear wheel-speed was detected before the front sprocket or calculated with rpm and gear but cant see why they would add that complexity for what could be done easier with the rear ABS sensor.

..Tom
 

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V-Tom, no info here on ABS wheel speed detection strategy, but as the control unit compares both, I would think that it needs to see both to make a judgement.
For engine speed, looking in the ABS section of the service manual neither the wiring diagram nor 3 schematics show any correlation between engine rpm or transmission gear. So it appears that everything depends on the wheel speed sensors.
You have your 3 (+) fuses, battery, ignition switch, and wheel speed sensors as inputs. I see nothing ignition-related (rpm) as an input to the control unit.
 

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V-Tom, no info here on ABS wheel speed detection strategy, but as the control unit compares both, I would think that it needs to see both to make a judgement.
For engine speed, looking in the ABS section of the service manual neither the wiring diagram nor 3 schematics show any correlation between engine rpm or transmission gear. So it appears that everything depends on the wheel speed sensors.
You have your 3 (+) fuses, battery, ignition switch, and wheel speed sensors as inputs. I see nothing ignition-related (rpm) as an input to the control unit.
That's what I would have thought. I wonder if tire changes accompanied the sprocket changes.

..Tom
 

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My experience was that with the OEM Bridgestones on TC2 the TC was interfering too much on tarmac roads. As soon as I fitted Michelin Road 5's that interference almost ceased completely under the same conditions. That imho almost certainly suggests that the OEM tyres were not as grippy as the Michelins. The ABS confirmed that for me also.
 
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