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Discussion Starter #1
Without a lot of experience, do you think the DL650 with stock tires, warm summer day with sunshine, riding a somewhat correct line in a corner that the bike will not slip until the pegs touch? I don't know what angle that is on that bike but I always think the tires will slip. Am I worried too much?
 

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Yep! Don't stress about how far you can lean. The bike has as much grip as you need. But don't go looking for lean angles, they will come.

The only time you run out of grip is when you aren't being smooth. Not being smooth comes from trying to go too fast into corners, hitting brakes in a turn, or chopping the throttle is not hoe you go around a corner fast.

People say they ride corners at 80%. I prefer to say I ride at speeds I can tighten my line if needed and not stress myself doing so.
 

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DL 650's with tires meant more for light off riding will touch the pegs with confidence! Shinko 705's seem to have plenty left at that lean angle. The tires that come stock would give more traction than the Shinko's. I have run Michelin Pilot Roads, BT 023 Bridgestones and have "touched the pegs" with all of them.

Don't put too much into "touching the pegs" as it is easy to do if you are using poor riding technique. Cold tires/road surface can limit traction as well as sand/dirt/gravel. So know the road and leave plenty of reserve in case you need it. Save the knee dragging for the track.

I think finding an empty parking lot and doing figure eights is a good way to experience some steep lean angles at safe speeds. Gives you a good feel of the bike in case you need to do an emergency manuever. Which leads me to what I think is VERY important......practice braking as hard as you can!
 

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slipping tires

I'm not an aggressively fast rider but I do have lots of experience on a variety of road surfaces. I don't ever think that my tires will slip in a corner if all things remain balanced.
In other words: no braking, no excessive throttle, no change in radius or camber and no change in the road surface.
The surface is the variable that's out of your control. You need to be anally aware of hazards and watch for gravel, sand, leaves, potholes and about a thousand other things that lurk on the surface to surprise you.
 

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Exactly - perfect description.

One track rider cracked he never rode aggressively on twisties as too many "gotcha's" on the pavement compared to a track.
 

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I don't consider my riding aggressive but I've touched both sides pegs using the 705 Shinko's. Surprised me since i din't think I was heeled over that much.
 

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V2 both sides on first ride after swapping from SV1000 which I had started to scrape LH the exhaust can mounting flange.V2 is on stock Deathwings. I actually (for the first time ever) heard the rear tyre squeel in a corner (!) I have reached the edges of front and rear Deathwings and actually quite like them on dry pavement. - I have adjusted my riding corner speed in consideration the V2 isnt an SV, and also I now move my body off the bike/shift body weight more to keep the bike more upright and leave some margin in case of the unexpected.
I believe that under "normal" dry conditions that a reputable tyre will "outride" most riders. It will be the bike scraping something immoveable and lifting the rear wheel that will cause the tyre to slip.
I dont explore lean angles in the wet...
 

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Without a lot of experience, do you think the DL650 with stock tires, warm summer day with sunshine, riding a somewhat correct line in a corner that the bike will not slip until the pegs touch? I don't know what angle that is on that bike but I always think the tires will slip. Am I worried too much?
You're worried too much, and worried about the wrong things.
Whether or not the pegs touch is a factor of a lot of things, suspension setup, body position, line though the corner...etc.
I've kept up with track day experienced guys on sport bikes dragging their knees, without touching anything down.
 

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All good information. Here's the thing on dragging hard parts on the street. If you are dragging your pegs and there is a little hump in the road, as a previous poster said, it lifts the rear tire and you will likely high side. That's a likely trip to the emergency ward. So don't do it regularly on the street. Either the road conditions or unexpected little humps will eventually get you. If you want to prove something, try a track. Lots of fun and oh so much less risk.
 

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I'm an aggressive rider and I don't drag pegs much at all and they are lowered. I only drag when the curves are tight and smooth, not many roads like that around here. Western NC is mostly where I loose my chicken strips..

The key to street survival is not to panic, keep riding. People screw up because they overreact and jam brakes or don't roll off throttle and drift through a little. Thats why some dual sport experience on loose dirt roads or a full on dirt bike do wonders in building street riding skills. Just stay away from the center line till your experienced, no stupid racing line crap. But, don't clip bicycles on the fog line either by staying hard right, takes time to get good and quick while fairly safe on the street.

For me I always leave some lean angle for safety, you never know when you'll need to tighten a line for a rabbit or gravel, deep pot hole in a shadow at the exit of a semi-blind curve etc. Riders with dirt experience have an advantage, they already know how to steer with throttle and a slide is normal. I've low sided once on the street so I've found the limits of rear tire traction the hard way. Since then I've lost traction countless times, but I haven't panicked again like I did when I crashed. I learned not to panic. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm not trying to touch the pegs, I don't want to! Seems like I'm always the slowest around the corners. I never trust the bike/tires, no confidence in them I guess. Maybe if I use the same line as the other riders and the speed, all will be well.
 

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Radial tires of today are light years ahead of tires of 30 years ago. Like one poster said, aside from something on the road surface, you will not exceed the tire's limits. Just ride normal in curves, not too fast, not too slow. You should be fine. It's normal to be cautious when caution is called for. But dry, clean pavement with good sight lines; you are good to go.
 

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Ride your own pace and never let yourself get in over your head. Take a track day, and maybe try and budget an advanced rider's training course or two. If you are smooth and knowledgeable, quickness will follow.

If you haven't read some of the excellent books on the techniques, the previously mentioned article is very good, The Pace 2.0, that is. It will lead you into some other great reads.

Proficiency in riding is built upon experience, thought, and study, built also upon a commitment to improve your skills incrementally and having the patience to see it through. More than anything else, you have to enjoy the ride. Otherwise, it isn't worth doing.

Ride safely and well.
 

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Tires have more traction than you expect. On clean dry pavement the tires will grip until scraping hard parts (not just peg feelers) lift the tires off the pavement.

If you scrape your peg feelers or drag the side of your boot, don't flinch. Don't jerk the bike around, don't chop the throttle, don't hit the brakes. If you keep riding, you'll probably ride through it fine. If you screw up, you'll likely crash.

If you drag the feelers, you are probably leaning your body away from the pavement and pushing your bike down toward the pavement. Have someone take a photo of you riding around a tight corner. Learn to lean your body down toward the pavement. Get your shoulders off center down toward the pavement. Turn your head toward the turn exit, point at the exit of the turn with your chin, keep your eyes level. The lean angle of the combined bike & rider depends on your speed and the turn radius. This is always the same for the same parameters, but you can change your body angle and thereby change the bike angle. Keeping the bike more upright by leaning into the turn not only reduces the chance of dragging but also helps the suspension work better and the tire contact patch more symmetrical by being more upright.
 

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Agreed. You can gain or lose a lot of cornering clearance with your body position.


YES.



NO.




To answer the original question, the tires are the least of your worries. They'll stick long past the point of dragging parts. Trust your tires.


But if you're dragging parts on the street, you've failed to maintain an adequate reserve of traction. Besides slowing down (duh), becoming aware of your body position is one of the best and easiest ways to combat this. Most people who haven't learned better ride like the doof on the scooter, flinching away from the pavement and thus increasing their chances of becoming far too acquainted with it.
 

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I was trying to find a quote by Stirling Moss, the great racing car driver from England. It was something about how he approached corners.
He was seen as one of the smoothest drivers around at the time. It came down to the smoothest way through a corner, finding the right line, gear and throttle.
Excessive lean doesn't necessarily mean you are the fastest. As in the other posts, position on the road, angle through the corner, body position, right gear and right throttle control will beat anyone just thrashing it round.
Saying that tyres will normally provide more traction than you require.
And roads aren't racetracks, they are very unpredictable especially in Aus.
Also don't try to keep up with others, we all have a different riding style. That's the quickest way to an accident.
Keep safe.
 

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In a recent track riding class, once we were used to the track, the instructor suggested pointing our chin at the handlebar grip towards the inside of the corner. Nothing extreme, just getting your weight on the inside some. Even then, as some posters have said, the tires used up their "chicken strips" but no slippage at all. And as another poster said, don't flinch if you rub something. It's a bit of a surprise when you rub your inside boot for the first time but you must hold your position in the corner. It won't hurt your boot or pegs. Be very careful if you are doing this on the street. You have close to zero margin for error once you are scraping things.
 

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But if you're dragging parts on the street, you've failed to maintain an adequate reserve of traction. Besides slowing down (duh), ...
To emphasize, slow down before entering the turn, not after you scrape something. Slowing drops the bike more into the turn. Continuing to roll on throttle (as we're taught to do while turning) tends to stand the bike up.
 

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When your tyres start feeling light then that's where your limits are reaching the edge, when they start walking as I like to say then your pushing hard and are closer to the edge of no return.

When I said starting to walk I mean the front and back are taking turns at sliding very slightly.

I might suggest not practicing in an empty car doing figure eights. Find a road with 60 km/h + corners and practice on them.
 
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