Two things spring to mind. The first is easy and it is the front tyre pressure.

The second is that you are tense during the turn and are counter-steering which makes the bike feel like it is turning in too sharp, which makes you more tense.

 

Breathe, relax, slip the clutch and drag the rear brake a bit. These bikes are top-heavy, so low speed maneuvers can be tricky. If you try to counter steer at these speeds the bike will drop into the turn fast. If that happens, add some throttle to stand it up.


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+1 on dragging the rear brake - lightly

 

And look in the direction you are turning. Don't look at the ground.

 

And, do this by turning your head...not just your eyes. If your head isn't turning to face directly at the point you want to hit, you're not doing it correctly.

One other thing, which I learned in a Motorcycle Safety Course, weight the OUTside edge of your seat when you turn sharply at low speeds...it helps keep the bike more upright, which keeps you from feeling that it is going to tip over inward.

 

The Dl's are actually a very nimble bike for slow speed manuvering. As previously stated, turning your head is a key factor but momentum is also important. Always look up and to the direction you want to go, never down. And of course leaning the bike factors in greatly. If your troubles persist I would suggest enroling in a class such as Ride Like A Pro in Texas https://www.ridelikeapro.com/locations/houston
Your confidence and abilities will soar

 

Weight to the outside of the turn on low speed turns keeps the rider more upright, not the bike.

 

This ^


Normal/high speed turns: Move torso to the inside of the turn. Counter-steer.

Slow speed turns: Move torso to the outside of the turn (counter-balance). Steer.


Also:
- Slip the clutch.
- Drag the rear brake a bit... this helps a lot.
- Turn your whole head to the exit of the turn.

Note: I find it easier to make U-turns on my heavy DL1000 than I do on my lighter SV650. Maybe it's because of the more upright body position on the Vee.

 

Remember this discussion is about low speed tight turns. Counterweighting, as the process of body weight to the outside of the turn is called, eats up ground clearance at higher speeds and is not good form.

 

Absolutely. Counterweighting is counterproductive, so to speak, in the majority of street riding (dirt is another issue) I believe the OP's problem may be trying to turn the bars without much bike lean thereby forcing the front wheel to want to pinch inward. Depending on the radius and speed of his turn, counterweighting may not be necessary
However when addressing slow speed, shorter radius turns, counterweighting is an important componet. For achieving full lock, full lean turns as in the linked video, it's vital, but most likely wouldn't help in the OP's case

 

All the above about counterweighting, slipping the clutch, and dragging the rear brake are great suggestions.

When you're choosing where to look, for faster speed turns, I look where I want to be. That means I had to train myself not to look at the obstacles, but look just left or just right of the obstacle. For example, in the middle of a curve I see a pothole. If I focus on the pothole, I'm going to hit the pothole. If I focus to the left or right of the pothole, the bike will go to the left or right of the pothole and I will miss it.

For SLOW speed turns, you need to look PAST where you want to be. Essentially, if I'm making a right hand u-turn, I crank my head over and try to look BEHIND me while I'm turning. All the way through the turn. So at the end of the turn, I'm not looking straight, but still a little to the right of the line I want. And I keep that head angle. Cause naturally I want to look behind me and as I turn I want to see the line or curb and want to see how close I am to it. But you'll learn that if you keep your head cranked all the way, you WILL miss that curb by a good foot. Trust in the bike to have a good turn radius. Cause this bike is pretty damned nimble.

Alexi

 

Since two pointed out my error, I couldn't respond to one and leave out the other. Yep, sitting a bit more heavy on the outside of the seat in a slow speed turn keeps the body more upright, allowing the bike to tilt more (if needed), without feeling like the whole deal is going to drop to the inside.

BTW, I don't think I do this except in slow speed turns...1st gear, creeping along. When I re-read the OP, it makes me think he's feeling this at faster speeds (10 mph and faster), since he's going through an intersection. I don't feel this bike is very top-heavy...could be because I recently had a KLR with a 7 gallon tank!

 

Boz, could you be turning before you've put on enough power? Try some very slow parking lot practice. Without touching the throttle you'll find that slightly squeezing in on the clutch causes the bike to drop into the turn, and slightly letting out the clutch stands the bike up. You might just need a small change in your timing to give it a bit of clutch and throttle earlier in your slow turn.

A motorcycle does not need to lean into a slow turn, but it'll turn sharper if you do lean it over by shifting the rider's weight to the outside. Try it with a light mc or a bicycle...bars hard over, walk,it around in a circle. Lean it over and walk around in a smaller circle.

 

That's one of the biggest mistakes beginners make while learning slow maneuvers, depressing the clutch lever slightly while executing a turn. The consequence being loss of momentum and generally a dropped bike. It is easily detected by the audible sound of increased RPM's as the throttle remains in the same position while the lever is depressed while in motion.
As the OP is having trouble in tighter slow turns I wouldn't recomend him depressing the clutch lever any further at this time.However your statemenet stands true and practicing releasing the lever slightly to pull up and out of a turn or circle is a wise idea.

 

The bike has a center of gravity and the rider has a center of gravity and what matters is the combined center of gravity, to keep the bike balanced, and you can add centrifical force to stand the bike up by simply accelerating. The video was impressive.

 

Wow lots of great information and very well delivered. Thanks to one and all.
Maybe I was too simple in my splaining my problem. Having ridden since 66 on many different bikes and having taken Motorcycle Safety Training class and the ERC 8 times most of your help was a great refresher and I hope others will garner some ideas.

The problem is an un-natural falling into the turn (L or R) beyond what I've experienced on any bike other than a HD with a springer frontend at low speeds. I'm looking for ideas on where to start looking in the hardware on the DL650. The 09 DL650 I had for 6 months (should have kept),did not demonstrate this tendency. Tire pressure is correct (never though of that but checked just in case). Could bad steering head bearings or not tightened correctly also cause this behavior?
Thanks

 

...The problem is an un-natural falling into the turn (L or R) beyond what I've experienced on any bike other than a HD with a springer frontend at low speeds. I'm looking for ideas on where to start looking in the hardware on the DL650. The 09 DL650 I had for 6 months (should have kept),did not demonstrate this tendency. Tire pressure is correct (never though of that but checked just in case). Could bad steering head bearings or not tightened correctly also cause this behavior?
Thanks

Has this bike been lowered by any chance? If so what was done?

..Tom

 

What tires and what condition are they in. Tires can make a profound change in handling.

 

Having read all the suggestions offerred about technique with slow speed turns there is one thing I would add. Some have said the DL is top heavy while others have not found that to be the case. That term is more associated with our body position during the turn and the bikes reaction. Since the bike is more reactive in slow speed moves to outside forces and movements counter weighting is the key but there is a proper technique for that as well. While some associate it with a butt shift to the outside or putting more weight on the outside peg the real key is upper body position. Keeping ones shoulders square behind the handlebars is the the best form. What is essential in slow speed maneuvers is to keep the bike as movement free as possible. Shifting the entire body before the turn can upset the stability quickly and actually be counter productive. OTOH, if you rotate your shoulders as you turn the handlebar the bike stays stable. Whether lock to lock on a 1000lb Wing or any lighter bike this creates less lateral movement to upset the bike.

While this technique is the smoothest to do it is the most awkward to learn. Awkward in the sense it doesn't feel comfortable. With plenty of practice it becomes second nature and almost looks like there is no body movement at all. Whether you use the rear brake or clutch, keeping forward power or momentum on the rear wheel will allow you to push through the turn. The upper body is now just a pendulum. This also allows the head turn to be a natural turn, not an exaggeration like looking behind you. Whether we are training novice students or Motor Cops through the many courses this is the one skill most feared. Once learned it becomes just another tool. I have ridden with some that are so fearful of a u-turn they would rather do 3 lefts and a right.

 

No Front Brake in Slow Turns

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this:

"AVOID using the front brake at all costs when riding at parking lot speeds, as applying the front brake at 5 or 10mph with the handle bars turned even slightly, will pull you to the ground like a magnet." (Quoted from here)​

This effect is most pronounced on very heavy bikes like cruisers, but it's powerful with mid-size bikes like ours, too.

 

Counter Weighting

If you're leaning to the inside on a slow speed turn, you can't make minute adjustments to the lean of the bike and yourself to keep the bike upright. The only thing you have left is the throttle/clutch (change in momentum). When you're leaned inside the turn and try to straighten your body up, you'll likely pull the bike down on top of you, even as you come up out of the lean, so the net effect is close to zero adjustment. You go down. (Don't ask me how I know that.) If you already felt yourself and bike beginning to lean too much, you don't have enough time to straighten up. You need to be on the outside of the turn. You will find it much easier to adjust. Hope that makes sense. At least I know what I was trying to say.:thumbup:

 

chin up, look in the direction you want to go. Slow turns you counter lean with your body and as the speed increases the transitions to leaning more than the bike.

 

I have found it more natural for me to lean with the bike for slow-speed turns. In watching videos of gymkhanas, especially the Japanese competitors, lean WITH the bike.


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In Hungary, there are many motorcycle trainings, which are trained by the motorcycle police. For low speed maneuvers, they always use the rear brake, without releasing the gas. Speed can be much more precisely controlled by the rear brake, than the throttle at near idle rpms.

 

I also use this technique when making higher speed 90 degree turns from one roadway to another in 2nd gear. I'll actually give a little throttle while applying the rear brake in order to use the gyroscopic effect of the engine to stabilize the bike. I use this method if I need to accelerate out of the turn or I'm in that speed area where first gear would rev too high for my liking and second would seem to lug a little.

 

Where you look with your eyes and head is where you are going to go.

Being an ex MSF instructor I would suggest that you spend a bit of time in a parking lot ( safely ) and do some slow speed turns, both directions, around a light standard or something similar. Always stay off the front brake, use some rear brake and the clutch & the throttle all together to control the bike. Also at slow speeds ( like parking lots, leaving a stop sign or anything else similar ) you are actually steering the bike, not push steering, so you have to be gentle on the bars. Push steering or counter steering comes into play once the speed gets up a bit more than a walking pace which is what I'm talking about. The trick is to do the turn as slow as you can, that's when you establish true control over the bike.

I've noticed with the DL650 that it is very quick to turn at slow speeds, so it is important to have good friction control.

 

no lean

I come home around a reflex corner (about 120 degree turn) - I go so slowly that the bike is darned near vertical - at such a slow speed body English is at work, though I don't do it consciously.

 

For slow maneuver turns you will actually have much better control of the bike by carrying momentum and leaning the bike further than your body. In whats called a "full lock, full lean" turn (bike leaned all the way and forks locked) you will be able to facilitate a much tighter turn than by not leaning the bike or leaning at the same angle as the bike. This is especially important when transisioning from a full lock, full lean side to side maneuve as in a figure 8. It's also much easier to upright the bike than your body from a full lean.

 

I currently have a Honda Shadow 600 cruiser and am a fairly new rider. I definitely have made improvement but slow speed turns are still rusty (especially going right and I'm right-handed).

I'm curious how the Wee will compare to my current bike for slow turns. As my local dealer does not allow test rides its a question I can't answer myself. Curious if anyone can give me some insight.

 

I had an 1100 Shadow for a while but did not like the forward controls. You may find having your feet underneath you on the Wee a bit akward at first, but will learn to appreciate the increased stability in time. Also the Wee's seat height will be much taller, again feeling akward at first. The Wee's shorter wheelbase and overall geometry will make slow maneuvers as well as high speed turns much easier. But everything will feel different to you at first. Reviewing youtube videos such as "Ride Like A Pro" and others will give you turning pointers. Getting some more hands on instruction will build your confidence and skills and is always highly recomended.

 

The DL650 does turn in quickly at slow speed at lean after such a fat radius of cornering, the narrow front tyre and 19" wheel kinda make that a given. Depending on the tyre profile you can get a negative 'scrubbing' or 'crabbing' feeling on slow entry at close to full lock. It is unpleasant if you're not used to dirt bikes and front washout.

What's happening is the side wall deforming a tad. I've noticed it more under brakes on a decreasing radius uphill corner. At first I thought it was trying to tuck, but it didn't fold, just felt yucky. Then it pushed.

So I tried it under brakes downhill and the same thing at lean.

They're not lightweight machines and they can override the rubber.

Cheers, Pax.