Hi guys, I live in the NJ Pines and there is a LOT of soft sugar sand in the trails here. I tried it with my stock tires and the first soft sand I hit - DOWN I went. Mind you, I am an experienced dirt rider. I tried it a couple of times since and it's a definite "no go". Is there a front tire or set of tires that will improve the soft sand handling of the Wee in any significant way? If so, is there a big trade off on the street? Thanks for any input!
Is it at all possible to make the Wee work in soft sand????
Baldspot
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Good question. The Shinko 804/805 are actually excellent on pavement for such an aggressive tire. If you go read or watch other rider's reviews, they all say the same thing. I was skeptical for sure. How can such an aggressive looking tire be good on pavement? But they are!
They do not squirm when leaned over. I've had them leaned over pretty far, about as much as I leaned my Dunlop TTM's, and they felt planted. And I'm pretty fast on a twisty road too.
They do vibrate and hum at lower speeds (below 40 mph). But it's not intrusive or excessive. At highway speeds, above 70 mph they are quiet and relatively smooth. Obviously never will be as smooth as the stock Bridgestone A41 tires. No 50/50 tire ever will be as good as an 80/20 tire on pavement.
Straight line and high speed stability is excellent. At 100 mph the Shinko's are stable.
Under braking they are stable. No weaving. But they do increase your stopping distances. Again all 50/50 tires will do this. It's like Mud Terrain tires on an SUV/truck. They all increase stopping distances.
For me, the small (in my opinion) compromises on pavement easily makes up for off road traction. Once you experience real off road traction, you may never go back to an 80/20 tire.
Nice one Damirio. Did you have your TC on setting #1 or completely off?@Naltega you are a champ... would like to try, but no desserts near by ...however I did find one piece of land with some loose / sand like / top soil, clay sand, and had some fun
View attachment 295072 View attachment 295073
Interesting. Even in that soft surface sand in your pictures?Thx
I keep mine in #1 as well except when I hit sand. Just not sure how it will handle it and I keep reading that people suggest turning TC off in sand. I guess I should try. I'd hate to try and then drop the bike because TC was too aggressive and cuts the power just when I need it.
The TKC80's was shamelessly copied by Shinko. LOL! With a few minor alterations.Without any previous "knobbies / off road" experience I just couldn't believe how well the TKC80's handled ALL conditions, you could hardly tell you have knobbies.
But yes exactly that. Often I have to remind myself I'm on knobbies.
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I have mine in #1 , but when things gets technical, I turn it off.
I hate running out of power (TC doing it's job) when I am trying to climb a rocky hill, all I need is power to paddle (the knobs in the tyre) my way up. No smooth drive will take me up the hill. Even in 1rst gear, it feel strange.
Sand, no way, the TC will be on most of the time. Besides, how are you going to throw dirt at your mates when you start fast HAHAHA
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Lower tire pressure along with knobbies helps, but a heavy bike in sand is always going to be a problem. A doable problem, but challenging.
I went with Michelin Ankanee Wild. Got them at half price due to a dealer selling out. Big improvement over the stock tires, but the 500 lbs. is still something to consider. Ride mostly Forest Service type gravel roads and not single or two track...that is for the DRZ400S. Seem to work really well on the pavement considering the knobs. As for noise, I can't be sure as I cannot wear my "electric ears" when I ride due to the helmet.
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59 Posts
I tried to read most of the comments to avoid repeating what's already been said. There's a lot of good advice out there already, covering tires, suspension, and riding technique. I'll add a couple things, simply because I didn't see them already mentioned or explained the way I would say it. So here they are...
The problem with the front end of the V-Strom is actually a combination of things including too soft of compression damping in the forks, having so much weight on the front end, having such a wide tire in front, and quick-turning steering geometry. Fixing one of these things alone won't help greatly. Fixing two of these will help some, and fixing three will help quite a bit. There's not much you can do about the heavy front end, with that V-Twin engine hanging there. You can generally make this better by keeping your weight back on the bike. There's been plenty said on that subject already. As for the forks, even with Gold Valve emulators, which most of us set up for combined riding, V-Strom forks will be challenging to ever tune in enough compression damping to handle soft sand. If you did tune the forks that way, you wouldn't like them anywhere else. You would probably get beat up by highway weather strips.
[Sidebar story: I had a 2016 KTM 300 XCW which I dearly loved riding in the woods, and even in places with course sand (actually tailings from a mining operation). I rode an enduro in Northern Indiana, which happened to be adjacent to Naked City nudist camp (but that's another story). It was deep, soft, sugar sand almost everywhere. It was the worst experience I ever had on my trusty 300. I was stopped trying to catch my breath and someone pulled along side to check on me. They advised me to crank in my compression dampers... a lot! I went in about 4 clicks, which helped the front end stay up in its stroke. That made it much easier to keep my weight back, because I wasn't fighting nose dive anymore. The course still sucked, but I was able to regain steering control, which I didn't have before.] As that knowledge applies to the V-Strom (at least one my Gen 1), the best way to compensate would be by cranking up the preload. That would at least reduce some of the front-end sag.
The wide front tire is also a problem in sand. Disregard the tread design for a moment and just think about the amount of surface area on the tread and sidewall of a 110/80-19 tire. There's a reason dirt bikes typically run a 80/100-21 front tire - it cuts through off-road terrain like a knife. A difference of 30 mm is well over an inch of addition width. First, the width is trying to push, rather than cut, through soft material. The width of the tire makes it want to ride up on top of the material, which is providing a lot of resistance. The weight of the bike prevents it from happening; it's constantly fighting itself, resulting in a bucking motion up front. Then, when you turn the wheel the least little bit, the resistance of the material pushes on the newly-introduced, even-greater surface area of the tire sidewall. Without a steering damper, or a set of Herculean arms, the front end is headed to full-lock right now! I don't know if you have ever searched for information about installing a 21" front wheel on a V-Strom, but there are quite a few people asking about it. There are very few people who have a credible answer. And, no one I've seen has an off-the-shelf kit for installing forks off a DR or RM (if you want to keep it in the Suzuki family).
And finally, there's the quick-turning steering geometry of the V-Strom. One my Gen 1 DL650, I have 1/2" of fork tube (measured to the bottom of the fork cap) extending above the top triple clamp. This provides a good balance of lively cornering on twisty roads, and reasonably good straight line stability at highway speeds. I never have headshake at speed, but I also don't trust it to ride it no-handed. Dropping the front end (raising the forks higher in the clamps) makes it quicker turning. Raising the front end (dropping the forks lower in the clamps) makes it more stable in a straight line. If you are going to spend the whole day in soft sand, it's probably worth taking the time to drop the fork legs; even a quarter inch might help. Again, just like with tuning the damping, extreme adjustments tend to hurt versatility.
While I'm talking about forks, it would be a good time to mention the use of a fork brace. Because the forks aren't real beefy, and because they are traditional right-side-up style, it's understandable that they are going to flex. The right and left can move in and out (to and from) each other, AND they can flex forward and backward opposite of each other. The result of the later is front wheel wobble. A fork brace clamps the two lower legs together as a more solid single unit, helping them stay parallel. I noticed a huge difference with my bike's stability in the wind, especially strong side wind. If it makes a noticeable difference on something (wind) that pushes on the whole bike and not specifically the front wheel, imagine what it can do resisting something (sand, rough ground) that does push on the front wheel.
The problem with the front end of the V-Strom is actually a combination of things including too soft of compression damping in the forks, having so much weight on the front end, having such a wide tire in front, and quick-turning steering geometry. Fixing one of these things alone won't help greatly. Fixing two of these will help some, and fixing three will help quite a bit. There's not much you can do about the heavy front end, with that V-Twin engine hanging there. You can generally make this better by keeping your weight back on the bike. There's been plenty said on that subject already. As for the forks, even with Gold Valve emulators, which most of us set up for combined riding, V-Strom forks will be challenging to ever tune in enough compression damping to handle soft sand. If you did tune the forks that way, you wouldn't like them anywhere else. You would probably get beat up by highway weather strips.
[Sidebar story: I had a 2016 KTM 300 XCW which I dearly loved riding in the woods, and even in places with course sand (actually tailings from a mining operation). I rode an enduro in Northern Indiana, which happened to be adjacent to Naked City nudist camp (but that's another story). It was deep, soft, sugar sand almost everywhere. It was the worst experience I ever had on my trusty 300. I was stopped trying to catch my breath and someone pulled along side to check on me. They advised me to crank in my compression dampers... a lot! I went in about 4 clicks, which helped the front end stay up in its stroke. That made it much easier to keep my weight back, because I wasn't fighting nose dive anymore. The course still sucked, but I was able to regain steering control, which I didn't have before.] As that knowledge applies to the V-Strom (at least one my Gen 1), the best way to compensate would be by cranking up the preload. That would at least reduce some of the front-end sag.
The wide front tire is also a problem in sand. Disregard the tread design for a moment and just think about the amount of surface area on the tread and sidewall of a 110/80-19 tire. There's a reason dirt bikes typically run a 80/100-21 front tire - it cuts through off-road terrain like a knife. A difference of 30 mm is well over an inch of addition width. First, the width is trying to push, rather than cut, through soft material. The width of the tire makes it want to ride up on top of the material, which is providing a lot of resistance. The weight of the bike prevents it from happening; it's constantly fighting itself, resulting in a bucking motion up front. Then, when you turn the wheel the least little bit, the resistance of the material pushes on the newly-introduced, even-greater surface area of the tire sidewall. Without a steering damper, or a set of Herculean arms, the front end is headed to full-lock right now! I don't know if you have ever searched for information about installing a 21" front wheel on a V-Strom, but there are quite a few people asking about it. There are very few people who have a credible answer. And, no one I've seen has an off-the-shelf kit for installing forks off a DR or RM (if you want to keep it in the Suzuki family).
And finally, there's the quick-turning steering geometry of the V-Strom. One my Gen 1 DL650, I have 1/2" of fork tube (measured to the bottom of the fork cap) extending above the top triple clamp. This provides a good balance of lively cornering on twisty roads, and reasonably good straight line stability at highway speeds. I never have headshake at speed, but I also don't trust it to ride it no-handed. Dropping the front end (raising the forks higher in the clamps) makes it quicker turning. Raising the front end (dropping the forks lower in the clamps) makes it more stable in a straight line. If you are going to spend the whole day in soft sand, it's probably worth taking the time to drop the fork legs; even a quarter inch might help. Again, just like with tuning the damping, extreme adjustments tend to hurt versatility.
While I'm talking about forks, it would be a good time to mention the use of a fork brace. Because the forks aren't real beefy, and because they are traditional right-side-up style, it's understandable that they are going to flex. The right and left can move in and out (to and from) each other, AND they can flex forward and backward opposite of each other. The result of the later is front wheel wobble. A fork brace clamps the two lower legs together as a more solid single unit, helping them stay parallel. I noticed a huge difference with my bike's stability in the wind, especially strong side wind. If it makes a noticeable difference on something (wind) that pushes on the whole bike and not specifically the front wheel, imagine what it can do resisting something (sand, rough ground) that does push on the front wheel.
I did the fork brace and installed Race Tech springs, but neglected to do the emulators. My 650 is Gen I also, but is the ABS model and dropping the forks an inch is generally conceded to be a bad idea due to the junction of all those brake lines under the triple clamp. A new Race Tech Spring was installed on the rear also, and that was a labor intensive project due to the ABS. Handling was a vast improvement on and off road, but the primary purpose of the upgrade was for off pavement. From all I have read, installing a 21" front wheel would be about as cheap as installing wire spoked wheels on the Gen I.
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This is I, on my first day training on sand.
Trying to understand how that thing works.
At least I keep moving .. most of the time .
Trying to understand how that thing works.
At least I keep moving .. most of the time .
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285 Posts
and here , I have mastered the riding position ... in easier terrain
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I have a 2014 V Strom 1000 here in NE Florida. Sugar sand everywhere. Tires make a huge difference!! Plus how you ride in it.. Hope these help,
IMPRESSIVE!
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How to ride in soft sand: Get a 250cc or larger bike with lots of power that weighs well under 300 pounds. Put some great tires on it and learn how to run it under power while up on the back wheel while steering with your body weight shift.
I successfully raced off road bikes ( in the 220 pound range ) for years through mud, snow and sand. I can't imagine riding my beloved Vstrom under those conditions. Use the right tool for the job.
I successfully raced off road bikes ( in the 220 pound range ) for years through mud, snow and sand. I can't imagine riding my beloved Vstrom under those conditions. Use the right tool for the job.
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285 Posts
The thing with going out adventuring is, you can find anything on the way.
Going for 2 hours on asphalt, then going for 1 hours on unsealed roads (dirt roads), then some gravel shows up for some 10 min, then dirt again for a while, a water crossing ... at some point mud ... at some point sand may show up or rocks .
So all in all, as rider , one needs to have some skills to go through the lot. Not necessarily to be great or to have competition level skills, be enough to get you though and back home.
That's why training in sand is good, if you can tackle sand, you are almost ready for anything HAHAHA
I think most of us approach this problem with the paradigm of stock tire specifications. Maybe there is a good reason for this, but larger footprint tires would help more than just about anything else. Probably everything else. That is the reason people reduce air pressure when off road and especially in soft sand. Weight of the bike / tire pressure (pounds per square inch) very roughly equals contact area. If you get technical, tire wall stiffness and shape are factors, but you get the idea.
If soft sand is important, and you are willing to changing tires to get there is you way to do it, exploring the widest tires that will fit the rims and provide adequate clearance would make since.
In all the years of V-Stroms forums threads I don't remember any threads on using wider than OEM specified tires. But it is a common thing to do on motorcyles and there is a lot of information out there about tire size vs rim size. Some of it is conservative since it is generic advice and the author doesn't want to be flamed by wasting peoples money on tires that don't fit between what ever obstruction is limiting on the most limiting bikes.
Seems to me that any thread created on the subject would provide information that would be helpful to a lot of people.
If soft sand is important, and you are willing to changing tires to get there is you way to do it, exploring the widest tires that will fit the rims and provide adequate clearance would make since.
In all the years of V-Stroms forums threads I don't remember any threads on using wider than OEM specified tires. But it is a common thing to do on motorcyles and there is a lot of information out there about tire size vs rim size. Some of it is conservative since it is generic advice and the author doesn't want to be flamed by wasting peoples money on tires that don't fit between what ever obstruction is limiting on the most limiting bikes.
Seems to me that any thread created on the subject would provide information that would be helpful to a lot of people.
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