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Any help from Galfer?
 

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Discussion Starter #82
Since I had nothing to do but wait, I decided to talk to Galfer after I replace the MC parts & that still doesn't solve the problem.

Naturally, that's turned into a goatrope. I got a package today from Partsoutlaw, but it only contained an engine cover gasket, which I did order but of course is not helping the present situation.

After some phone calls and emails, I'm supposed to have my 59800-08810 (piston & cup set, the parts that I think may need replacing) by Tuesday.

I'm still extremely frustrated at watching most of another week go by without being able to ride, but this is faster than cancelling and getting the parts off eBay at this point.
 

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you really, really, need 1 more motorcycle. something like a 250 dirtbike would be good for running around and roping goats. maybe in the future see if you can get parts from amazon. they are usually pretty fast for shipping.
 

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Deja Vu. I have rebuilt my clutch master and slave cylinder. Installed a new Galfer hose. Bled the system and the first two pulls of the lever were fine. I then started to get the problem that you described. The lever would stick and feel like it was crushing gravel, but you could pull it through it's stroke with a lot of resistance. WTH.

I started looking at things and remembered that the banjo bolts that Galfer supplies have a fluid port that is much smaller than stock and not cross drilled but only drilled through one side. I replaced both banjo bolts with the stockers and re bled the clutch. The problem is gone. I cannot repeat the fault and my hands are tired from trying.

I can only suspect that my issue was caused by the fluid not being able to flow as freely as the stock banjo bolts allow, especially on lever release.
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Discussion Starter #85 (Edited)
So yours acted up right away? My Galfer line (w/Galfer banjo bolts) was fine for over a year - then this nonsense.

The intermittent nature of it is the truly baffling part. If it were something as simple as the size of the hole in the banjo bolt, you'd expect consistent malfunction.

I did retain the original banjo bolts, so I can compare at least.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
Deja Vu. I have rebuilt my clutch master and slave cylinder. Installed a new Galfer hose. Bled the system and the first two pulls of the lever were fine. I then started to get the problem that you described. The lever would stick and feel like it was crushing gravel, but you could pull it through it's stroke with a lot of resistance. WTH.

I started looking at things and remembered that the banjo bolts that Galfer supplies have a fluid port that is much smaller than stock and not cross drilled but only drilled through one side. I replaced both banjo bolts with the stockers and re bled the clutch. The problem is gone. I cannot repeat the fault and my hands are tired from trying.
This was the right track, although my problem wasn't the same as yours. At least, doesn't look that way. Remember, I had no problem using the Galfer bolts with the Galfer hose for over a year.

Just for giggles, I drained fluid, and removed and examined both Galfer banjo bolts.

The upper one has some kind of blockage. Fluid can squeeze through - but only just barely. As judged by attempting to run water through it. The lower banjo bolt freely passes water, albeit at a slower rate than the OEM bolt (since it does have 2 holes and a larger shaft cavity).

The clutch system does not really move fluid - it merely applies pressure. But it seems clear that the blockage in the upper banjo bolt was causing big problems some of the time.

I've replaced both Galfer bolts with OEM bolts, refilled, and bled. Clutch now operates like it used to. I've tired my hands out several times, trying to reproduce the previous problem.

This leaves of course the question of WTF got into the Galfer bolt & caused the blockage. I can't get a good look, because it's a very small hole. Even with a magnifying glass and bright light, all I can tell is that there's black schmutz/schmoo in the area where the side hole joins the shaft cavity.

Picking at it with a small drift punch, whatever the blockage is seems rubbery. Wonder if a piece of one of the seals within the MC broke off, and tried to visit the SC?

I'll find out tomorrow. I took pretty good pictures of the MC innards when I had them out. Supposed to get new MC parts tomorrow.
 

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Yeah, the MC does need to move a volume of fluid, that's how you get the movement at the SC end. Fluid in > fluid out. The pressure is the result of resistance to fluid flow. If the system can't move the fluid then you get back pressure and no movement where you want it. That's how hydraulics work.
 
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Happy you got it working. I have the Galfer lines on everything, but I’m going to re install the OEM banjo bolts.
 

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Discussion Starter #89
Happy you got it working. I have the Galfer lines on everything, but I’m going to re install the OEM banjo bolts.
Don't know what year you have, or ABS, but that may not be possible for the front brake lines. On my setup, the factory hose used a single banjo and corresponding banjo bolt, interchangeable with the clutch line banjo bolts.

The Galfer brake line package uses 2 separate hoses, each with its own banjo, and a corresponding special double banjo bolt.

I'm curious whether your clutch problem was actually the same as mine: bits of rubber from the MC seals lodging in the smaller passages of the Galfer banjo bolt.

If so, it may be worthwhile to do a preemptive brake MC rebuild. I do not need the brakes giving me grief as the clutch has been.
 

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The GSXR series uses a double banjo bolt on the right side caliper. I have one on order.
Not sure what the problem was with mine, it was the first time being bled after rebuild and nothing was trapped in the bolts.
 

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I would almost bet that any debris is from the hydraulic hose. NOT the Master Cylinder seal.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Yeah, the MC does need to move a volume of fluid, that's how you get the movement at the SC end. Fluid in > fluid out. The pressure is the result of resistance to fluid flow. If the system can't move the fluid then you get back pressure and no movement where you want it. That's how hydraulics work.
Ah, that must be why I don't see any change in the MC fluid level as I squeeze and release the clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter #93
The GSXR series uses a double banjo bolt on the right side caliper. I have one on order.
Not sure what the problem was with mine, it was the first time being bled after rebuild and nothing was trapped in the bolts.
That's so weird. I rode thousands of miles using the Galfer BB's, no problems.

If I could get the rubber bits (if that's what they are) out of the one Galfer BB I would be happy to re-use it.

In the meantime, the OEM bolts will be fine.

"Meantime" has been extended at least one day, because Useless Package Service is bad at their job. Unless they change the delivery date yet again, I'm supposed to get the MC rebuild parts tomorrow (instead of today).

I wouldn't care if the stuff had been shipped Ground, but there was a time when 2nd-day Air meant just that.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
I would almost bet that any debris is from the hydraulic hose. NOT the Master Cylinder seal.
Possible, but evidence is trending another way. You would think that if the hose were shedding bits of lining, I'd find something in the drained fluid, and lodged in the lower BB just as they are in the upper BB. I haven't.

We'll know for sure once I can compare the new and old MC bits.
 

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Ah, that must be why I don't see any change in the MC fluid level as I squeeze and release the clutch.
There won't be any noticeable change in fluid level of the master cylinder reservoir when you depress the lever. The fluid that is being transferred to the slave or caliper is already in the chamber for the piston to push. The transfer port is blocked once the piston starts moving.
Clutch hydraulic systems have a much longer range of motion compared to braking systems. Clutches must operate the full range of the design each time, brakes just pressurize a chamber. That is part of why the fluid gets so dirty in the clutch system.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
The GSXR series uses a double banjo bolt on the right side caliper. I have one on order.
Not sure what the problem was with mine, it was the first time being bled after rebuild and nothing was trapped in the bolts.
Interested to hear how, if at all, the change affects braking feel.

I don't have any way to measure clutch lever pull, but it feels as if it doesn't require as much force with the OEM banjo bolt on the MC. That would make sense, as the holes are larger and not blocked, even partially. I think the blockage in the Galfer BB may have built up over time. It was only recently that it got to the point where it was seriously reducing the contact surface (and so requiring huge force).
 

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Ah, that must be why I don't see any change in the MC fluid level as I squeeze and release the clutch.
You never will because the fluid it's moving is only the volume that's already in the piston at the bottom. The level in the reservoir changes when the clutch wears and the position of the slave cylinder changes. When you just sit there working the lever back and forth you're moving the same volume of fluid out of the MC, down the line to the SC, then back to the MC when you release and the SC retracts.
How hydraulics works | Science of hydraulics
 

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Discussion Starter #99
Clutch hydraulic systems have a much longer range of motion compared to braking systems. Clutches must operate the full range of the design each time, brakes just pressurize a chamber. That is part of why the fluid gets so dirty in the clutch system.
This doesn't match what I have observed.

The fluid was as clean as could be, even after over a year in the system.

The SC piston does not seem to move much. At maximum lever deflection, the clutch pack only lifts about 1/8". Assuming the linkage in between is rigid (the pushrod certainly is), one can infer that the SC piston moves a similar amount.
 

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Ok. Yes the slave piston moves the same distance as the "pressure plate". But the master cylinder piston travels much further. EACH time it is used. My comparison is to a typical brake system. The pads are basically touching the rotor when the brake is applied. Very small distance of movement.
Be glad your fluid was clear. My experience is that fluid in clutch systems gets more dirty than any brake system and does it quicker.
 
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