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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
While looking for the source and cure for the idle hammer in my SV, I came across the problems in the clutch basket and came up with the re-engineered fix for the clutch chudder.
Well I got back to the Idle Hammer source and solution problem. Have run prototypes and proved exactly what it is. Is anyone sufficiently hacked of with their IH noise to fit the fix?

Svman - Sharealike most other places
 

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How about revealing what causes the noise?
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
The cause of the Idle Hammer

The IH noise and hammer felt through the bike is because the crank hops (lifts) up and down in the drive side (right of the engine) main bearings oil clearance.

There are a few contributory factors which when they occur at the same time and while ever the engine is not loaded (such as when at idle) create the lift.

Heavy flywheel being pulled downwards by gravity at the opposite end tends to lift the drive side journal.

Two pistons and rods mid-way between the bearings trying their best to make the crank journals rise and fall.

Scissor gear adjacent to the drive side main pushes the crank fowards and therefore upwards so the journal lifts.

Clutch with significant rotational inertia (acting as second engine flywheel) trying to lift the drive side main as it transfers inertia back into the crank via the primary drive gears.

Less prone to happen and quieter when engine is cold. Less expansion of the bearing which is in an aluminuim housing. Oil thicker so damps the knock.

More prone to happen and makes a very heavy and regular knock when engine crank cases and oil are hot through. Fully expanded bearing housing. Oil thinned due to heat so far less damping.

You could say it's just down to the layout of the engine. Perhaps if we had lighter flywheels, heavier cranks, less main bearing oil clearance, different design of bearing, a lighter and smaller diameter clutch (less inertia), deeper clutch oil bath or better oil cooling then the IH would never occur. Wait a minute! These are all the things Suzuki changed between TLS/TLR when they created SV and DL. Or what they have tweaked in SV and/or DL since their birth in 2002 and 2003. TLS/TLR had other problems but no reports of IH.

Try TBS (vacuum), new plugs, TPS, Valve check, different oil brands, different oil grades, Fuel Map tweaks, check the big nut on the crank and the rest. If you still have the IH in your SV or DL after this lot then your only way to cure it before now was to strip the engine and gamble that new mains would have some impact (or sell it in winter). Which is exactly what Suzuki were doing here in the UK to pacify owners until as late as 2006.

Something that works at just the right frequency to keep the "hop" in check at idle is required. It must also allow the crank journals to build and run on their wedge of oil in the mains when the engine is loaded.

Like the clutch basket re-engineering I kicked off some years ago, this IH solution has taken plenty or investigation, experimenting and testing over two years to get something fit to make available. Now wondering if it's going to be worth my time to tool up for low volume production to help those owners who until now just had to put up with the IH.
 

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Never knew this was an issue other than a bit of noise?:confused: Some do it and some don't so how can your theory be 100% correct? Mine didnt do it by the way, of course I typically ran 20W50 oil in mine year around.
 

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How and/or does the IH differ from what I like to call the "clutch chatter", the noise heard at idle on both the 1000 and 650 that dissapears when the clutch lever is depressed? Or is this a completely different animal?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Never knew this was an issue other than a bit of noise?:confused: Some do it and some don't so how can your theory be 100% correct? Mine didnt do it by the way, of course I typically ran 20W50 oil in mine year around.
The DL 1000 was less affected than the SV. DL had slightly lighter clutch and flywheel. There are DL1000 owners with the IH and keen to lose it.
This is not a theory. Like my clutch basket re-engineering development to cure the chudder, I experimented and prototyped it for years in my spare time to prove it beyond doubt. That kind of thing used to be my job. I have hard evidence to back up every comment I make. My reputation is at stake here.

The loundness and severity varies from bike to bike due to manufacturing tolerances which then affects how the bearings "bed in". Suzuki top tech guy told me this. He was a mechanic to Barry Sheene on the Suzuki team many years ago. Called me one evening and we talked for over an hour and a half.

Heavier oil will improve or cure mild cases. 20W60 went some way to help my second bike but far from a cure and it was 80 USD a gallon. First bike just hammered straight after the first oil change and nothing would stop it. Other than Suzuki bought it back from me within three months and added something to cover my trouble. At the time they said other bikes released were cured and mine was an assembly line rogue. Has since proved to be less than the truth.

2005 and on bikes were fitted with revised bearing shells and reduced main bearing oil clerarance at the factory. Incidence and severity of IH is less. Engine layout remains the same. SV received a slightly lightened flywheel.

Happy to show the hard evidence where it exists.

Svman aka Sharealike other places
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
How and/or does the IH differ from what I like to call the "clutch chatter", the noise heard at idle on both the 1000 and 650 that dissapears when the clutch lever is depressed? Or is this a completely different animal?
The very best of questions.

The IH and Clutch Chatter at idle in the 1000 engines are easily mistaken for each other. I also thought they were one and the same when I set out on these investigations.

The sound and nature of the IH changes when you pull the clutch lever in. This disengages about 2kg of clutch hub and steel clutch plates which represents a significant rotational inertia that was acting on the crank via the primary drive gears.

I can't comment with any authority on the 650 engine because I never owned one, had one open or rode them great distance in the right IH enducing conditions.

My clutch basket development work taught me that much of the noise owners blame on the clutch comes from the gearbox input shaft. Just pull the lever in a hair (not to the bar) and this is often enough to silence much of what is blamed as clutch chatter. The gearbox still runs when the bike is in neutral and the lever released. In fact it continues to run long after the lever is pulled to the bar. Sometimes its only by selecting a gear that it ever stops. Clunk you might often hear when selecting gear? Gearbox noise at idle is always a problem in engines. In our case there are six gears still in mesh (constant mesh gearbox) and at least two large ball bearings running. All these individual componets without any load on them will make plenty of noise. Particularly on the older the bike because the running clerarance they all need will only increase with miles. Pulling the lever in a hair or right to the bar puts a heavy end load on the gearbox input shaft bearings. This silences them and also serves to damp other rattling activity ammongst the gears on the same shaft. Try it.

IH and the Clutch Chatter/gearbox noise are only linked in that they are on neighbouring shafts linked by the primary drive gears. Just how much of the clutch inertia you allow into play to affect the crank has a direct effect on the severity of IH, or tendancy to try and IH.

My own engine has the IH with the clutch to the bar when its hot. Means I can't escape IH at rest other than selecting gear and letting the clutch drag a little (switching off not a good option). Not good practice and is why the IH fix in addition to the clutch basket modifications became so crucial to the further enjoyment of my bike.

Svman aka Sharelike other places.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Does this affect both the 650m and 1000?
Another very good question.

I can't comment with any authority on the 650 engine because I never owned one or had one open. Some I have ridden and many I pulled up alongside at the lights exhibit the characteristics of the IH. Softer than experienced in the 1000 but I hear it over the sound of my own 1000 engine when at a halt. The same fundamental engine layout but the 650 has significantly smaller and lighter major components. Probably never becomes a problem.

I could develop a fix for the 650 engine based on the 1000 fix if there was demand.

Svman aka sharealike other places
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you. Those three threads certainly read as though some of the 07 650's had the Idle Hammer once the engine got warm.
 

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It was often present in later years too. The change was from 2006 to 2007. It seemed to be a top end noise though. That would make sense as the bottom end was unchanged and the top end had differences.
 

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Beta tester Fred W checking in.

Sharealike sent me a beta version of his damper kit to trial on my severely knocking 2004 DL1000 with 46k miles. The knocking on my bike comes on as soon as the engine is fully warmed up and does not subside until you let it cool down fully. It is present at idle or just above idle with the clutch pulled in, or let out in neutral. It does subside if the bike is put in gear and you start to let the clutch out and slip it, to place a load on the engine.

The Sharealike Idle Hammer Elimination Damper Kit is made up of several precision machined pieces. There is a modified stock alternator rotor retention bolt, the milled alloy damper assembly itself, (which includes a pressed in bearing) a small spacer on a smaller diameter bolt that screws into the rotor bolt (shown below screwed in its appropriate place to rotor bolt) which in effect couples the end of the crankshaft to the new damper bearing, and a black plastic trim ring.



It seriously took less than 30 minutes to install it from start to finish. No need to drain the oil or remove any engine cases or faring panels. Just take off the round left side access plug (over the alternator rotor bolt), remove the old rotor bolt, screw in and torque the new modified one down. Screw the new damper assembly into where the plug previously was, then install the small spacer coupler into its center. Finally, screw the original access plug onto the end of the damper and fit the black plastic trim ring. That's it!!

And the results are fantastic. No more idle hammer. Period.

This is how it looks when fully installed:





Yeah, if you have the idle hammer, you are definitely going to want one of these.
 

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Realshelby and Arne,

Looking at Svman's IH fix in Fred W's pictures it appears that what each of you have done with your automotive alternator modifications may also dampen idle hammer by virtue of your extended rotor bolts and outboard bearings in your left crankcase covers.

Observations or comments? Have you experienced any issues with solidly attaching a ball bearing to the crankcase cover given that the end of the crankshaft may be moving radially and axially, even a little bit?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
DL1000 Clutch Basket Damper Refurbishment to cure the vibrating "chudder" as you ride


Two SV1000's I had from new started with this annoying engine vibration within 5,000 miles of delivery. It was in all gears and throttle positions as the engine passed from 3,000 rpm to 4,000 rpm. Such a vibration should not be there, even in a 1000cc Vtwin and I was determined not to accept dealerships claims that, "its just a characteristic of the engine sir". The vibrations in my second bike worsened as the miles built and I became convinced it was down to some deterioration in either the crankshaft bearings or primary drive damper in the clutch basket.

Back in 2007 some SV1000 owners experimented with spacers/washers on the springs and even replaced the springs but with less than conclusive results. With a good few years of vehicle transmission engineering and design under my belt I then set out to prove what was wrong for myself. No way could I believe a respected engine manufacturer like Suzuki could get something so wrong. Took well over a years testing and prototyping to finally prove the torsion damper in our clutch baskets could be made to work as the engine designer had first intended. In fact a whole lot better than it was when new. The vibrations were gone for good!


When I came across owners on DL forums with much the same issues I made a very open offer to modify a few baskets for them. Ten volunteers soon sent baskets here in early 2010 which we started to get out on the road by early March. Without exception the reports from these owners (complete strangers before sending their baskets) were all very positive. "it's like I got a new bike" and "now my engine behaves like it always should have from new". It soon became clear the modification of a bikes existing basket was better than a new replacement. The rest is history and owners ship DL1000 and SV1000 baskets to me from all over the world. Even from Japan. Over 150 modified and running in bikes at April 19 2011 and every one of their owners writes to say how it's improved their enjoyment of the bike.

I hope to find time to post descriptions, movies and pictures of the problems going on inside the damper (clutch basket) and fully explain the issues in there. Intention is owners can use as resource to help diagnose if it's their clutch - both while riding and once it's stripped for inspection.
After that I hope to show how the modification is managed. Information for owners interested in how to perform their own modification will also be available (only recommended for those with the equipment and experience).

Idea is to keep this thread clear and as informative for those who follow in years to come. I hope everything will be covered in what's posted later. Just got to get the DL and SV communities as self sufficient as they can be.

Watch this space..

I will put some words round these pictures and movies once I prove they upload without a problem.



This assembly weighs 10 Pounds or 4.5kg. It only needs the slightest encouragement from a failing torque damper to start it resonating at engine speeds of 3,000 to 4,000 rpm. The wear in the damper takes it "out of tune" so the resonance is felt throught the whole bike.

Here's the Torque Damper. Does a fairly decent job when new but soon goes off and creates the vibrations that resonate through the bike.


It's this excessive and jerky deflection of the damper at the critical engine/clutch rpm that causes the vibration.
YouTube - ‪5 Basket loose on the gear to vibrate.MP4‬‏

YouTube - ‪6 Inner plate loose.MP4‬‏

YouTube - ‪7 Cover removed Loose inner plate gives the effect of slack springs‬‏

YouTube - ‪8 Springs and plate eat in to seats in drive direction. Little wear in over-run direction.MP4‬‏





Details of how to perform this modification are available on request. You really need the right machine tools and engineering background to pull it off though. Been eating up much of my time supporting this so....
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I have often tried to describe just how the torsion damper thats built into our clutches works. Came across this movie explaining how the a Dual Mass Flywheel works in other engines. Our's may not be diesel or direct injection but the large capacity V twin creates the same sort of torque pulses that need to be isolated from the transmission and the rest of the bike.

The mass of our DL and SV engines clutch serves as one mass, while the primary drive gear and engine flywheel serve as the other. The spring arrangement and protection from overload is also much the same. All this to maintain both refinement at idle and as we ride. Just the same principles and very similar components. The automotive world is also having problems with these DMF's. Much the same as in our engines. Lucky for us our damper is robust enough and made in such a way it can be modified with re-engineering to work better than new - and with a much greater life expectancy.

Dual Mass Flywheel For Passenger Cars - How It Works - - YouTube


Svma aka Sharealike most other places

Fuller details to do your own DL or SV basket.

Shown much of this before over the years and in all sorts of places - never before such a complete set all in the same place.

From top left. Re-engineered basket and re-engineered gear.
Bottom row from left. Re-engineered inner and outer plates. New high tensile setscrews to replace old rivets.
All other components can often be used again after fine check for tolerance and signs of damage.


New ground finish to hub of gear.


Where the new sharealike bearing - precision machined to match will run. - example of original finish to right.
Old rivet holes are drilled, tapped and counter sunk for new high tensile setscrews. Some copiers have drilled these oversize and used thread inserts. This weakens the posts as the basket is very thin where the posts meet the main casting.


Inner plate fitted to back of basket. Setting of exact position is done later after measurements.


Gear and Spring Set fitted. Position of each spring is key.


Dished Springs fitted. Look round the centre.


Fit Top Cover. Original case hardening is roughed up to ensure underside of the setscrews key into the plate. This area is often polished on older baskets because the loose rivets allowed the surfaces to fret as they chuddered.


Insert and tighten three high tensile setscrews and oil pump gear drive dowel.


Fit oil pump gear. The one thing that will only fit the right way round. Circlip can be fitted wrong.


Look inside to check component positions ready for damping deflection checks.


Measure damping deflection. Basket prevented from rotation while gear is rotated with increased loads.


Check the loading for each and observe the four phases of the torsion absorber working.


Strip after earlier test assembly. Adjust damping, deflection and phases based on measurements taken in above two stages.
Lubricate, rebuild, confirm adjutments are correct, seal to prevent moisture getting in and lubricant getting out until you are ready to fit.


This is by no means the complete process. You will need a good engineering background to perform the work. Hope it gives some insight into the original re-engineered modification.
It only used approved transmission engineering and widely accepted methods for the work. Pays much closer attention to position and tolerances of each component than when new. These dampers can now be opened up and re-adjusted after the initial modification shown above. They can then be regarded as an easily serviceable item.
Well over three hundred modified like this running in bikes all round the world. Started offering to modify them to save owners fitting replacement baskets so they could rid these lovely engines of the chudder for ever. Enjoyed helping everyone sort out their bikes.

I know that the clutch chudder won't leave me stranded BUT I was wondering affect it has on engine enternals??.My chudder is at point where it makes the whole bike vibrate more at most every rpm.I would think that after a period of time having that clutch out there vibrating might cause a seal or worst yet a bearing failler ??
I have been sick for a couple of weeks so I have had alot of time to lay there and think !!.


Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com App
Drew this up some years ago to show what breaks inside the DL and SV baskets. You would have to ride one hard for at least 10,000 severely chuddering miles to find the plate cracked, gear striking the safety stop and the rivets loosening off. NOT ALL BASKETS GET LIKE THIS. My own SV basket had all this at only 12,000 miles except my very loose inner plate was not cracked.


Never found any damage outside or away from the basket that could be directly attributed to the chudder in my own engines. No one else reported anything I know of. Fact the vibration originates inside the clutch basket and is felt through the bike means it must follow through a fair number of components to reach the rider. The thrust face of this gear meshed with the crankshaft often gives away how the engines vibration passes through the clutch to the gearbox input shaft.

Note the two ground out sections of the thrust face at the end of the bearings bore. These are normal and allow oil fed down the hollow gearbox shaft to lubricate the thrust faces of the gear. Look how the face immediately below the one on the right has ripples (three or four?). There are the same ripples in the face above the one on the left. These ripples are caused by constant hammering of the thrust face against the gearbox input shaft bearing. The oil entering the gap between the thrust faces is first compressed and then released by the hammering action of the vibration. This occurs so regularly at a given frequency to cause the pressure waves in the oil which form the ripples. It's the type of damage typical of repeated oil pressure and decay known as cavitation. I first found these ripples in my own SV1000 basket over four years ago and at only 12,000 miles. They are there in most baskets with a weakened torsion damper and are the exact same size and distance appart. The number, depth and distance they reach away from the oil feed points increases with miles. Have some gears where two quarters of the thrust faces are rippled. It's unlikely to be causing the same level of damage in the gearbox bearings but can't be good for any bearings or load bearing parts close by. Particularly over the life of our engines. Suzuki have made revisions to the thrust faces on SV and DL baskets but don't seem to have reduced the incidence of this damage. I see the early signs of it even in 5,000 mile baskets I have modified.

Whole point of these engine torsion dampers is to isolate and so protect our drive line from damage just like this. Their value should not be ignored nor their modification be attempted without full understanding of the long term impact on components.
 

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I don't seem to have a problem on my '04 650.
What I really appreciate is a finely machined bit of work and good pictures.
This is entertaining and educational. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I don't seem to have a problem on my '04 650.
What I really appreciate is a finely machined bit of work and good pictures.
This is entertaining and educational. Thanks.
Thank you.

The Idle Hammer and Engine Vibration from the clutch are both peculiar to the 1000 engine. The two engines are very, very different parts yet nearly the exact same layout. It's the heavier weight of the 1000 parts in the main.

svman
 

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also - thanks

I don't seem to have a problem on my '04 650.
What I really appreciate is a finely machined bit of work and good pictures.
This is entertaining and educational. Thanks.
Ditto on the above.

not sure if I have idle hammer - unless you mean that periodic bang bang at idle :)

everything seems to be running OK so I am leaving it alone.
 
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