Strom Trooper banner

21 - 38 of 38 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,723 Posts
Someone needs to stuff a TL1000R motor in one!!! I would, But I am still riding My TL... LOL!
An SV1000 engine has been done, but it wasn't easy and nobody else has tried it to my knowledge? That's what getting another bike in the garage is for IMHO, but I understand that isn't an option for many. :smile2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
242 Posts
Ya, I agree. I still have a hard time with 99 HP being "under powered". I think the V has more than enough pull, is light and handles awesome on the road, and OK everywhere else. It's a great all around bike, and really not that heavy. I ride with guys on VFR1200X and Stilvios, and they have more ponies, but are a lot heavier. I never get left behind, and on the twisty pavement and gravel roads I leave them.

It's not all about horsepower..... although a BMW S1000RR with 200 HP would be yummy at the track... I come close to killing myself on my old 02 GSX-R1000 every time I am there..... LOL! Yikes...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,431 Posts
Way back a few decades, a motorcycle magazine ran a series of tests using the same motorcycle on a dyno, running different brands of gas and compared high octane to regular gas. It was not a real high performance engine. However, some brands of gas put out more power than others and high octane gas put out more power than regular. Each brand put out differing amounts of power. Very interesting test. I haven't seen another since then. It would be a fun thing to do again to see if the results still show differences between brands and octanes. I've never run aircraft fuel. Great idea though!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
447 Posts
Most of us, me definitely included, don’t even use near the horsepower available on our bikes. If you regularly upshift well before redline rpms then you are leaving tens of horses completely untapped. Changing your riding style would do more for performance than messing with an already well tuned engine.

Have you seen this video of a guy on an Africa Twin doing a lap on the Nürburgring?

https://youtu.be/M_89ePdB7KM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,743 Posts
Need

If you know you will be using high-octane gas, and design the engine to use it, then it can make a great deal more horsepower. Putting high-octane fuel into an engine not designed to use it probably makes a small difference at best. The OP didn't originally mention that the bike had been 'tuned'. Be interesting to know the details.

I have read that when the US motocross teams go to the MX des Nations, the fuel provided/mandated is of lower octane, and the bikes need to be detuned to run on it.

I watch the car shows on early on Sunday morning. The one where they build engines had an episode where they wanted a normally-aspirated engine to make 1000 HP. So they designed the engine to have abnormally high compression (14.5?) and run on 115 octane race gas. Compression (expansion) ratio is how an engine makes power, and octane allows higher ratios.

Having a knock sensor and variable ignition timing can make a difference too. My truck, with a 4 liter V6, allegedly runs on regular. But with premium in it, it runs smoother, provides more torque, and more HP. I suspect, on regular, the knock sensor is setting the timing way back, essentially detuning the engine.

I used to mix some high-lead avgas with pump gas in my Airhead. But that was for the lead, to preserve the valve seats, rather than to provide greater power. Good thing, too, since it didn't have much.

As mentioned, leaded fuel will kill sensors and catalytic convertors. So not recommended for anything with either of those.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
+1 on Woolich. If you have a good dyno tuner to work with, they can sort out the timing retard (and advance...), lean it out at steady state, and dump more gas during accelleration. i was able to take my 2004 SV1000 up by 3-4 HP from the prior baseline with no other changes, but more importantly it was way smoother at lower revs and the torque curve was broader and flat.
--Joel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
343 Posts
Has anybody ever run, or have access to, Avgas?

I have. I used it for my RMX250, and would put any leftovers in my GSXR1100. They would start easier, idle smoother, and GO. I estimate an extra 15-20HP on the GSXR1100. Totally NOT an imaginary impression.

It would turn the spark plugs green. The gains were across the board. I did not own a V-Strom then.

Of course, illegal for on road use.
This is the old dilemma. Higher octane (AVGas) means more resistance to combustion due to compression. Like my diesel engine needs low "cetane" and high compression gas engines need high "octane". But if you do not have a high compression gas engine what the heck does more octane do for you? Octane is not a measure of violence of combustion (energy release). Just resistance to precombustion due to compression. Some one explain this to me with that fact in mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
That Africa twin looks fun. That guy looked like he had the track to himself until the little white turbo car crept passed him.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
4,550 Posts
I think Coach nailed it. Higher octane fuel made little difference in my stock XR250R. However, after boring it out to 280cc and going to 12 to 1 compression the highest octane fuel I could find made all the difference in the world. My higher performance engine ran like crap on regular gas. I wound up learning as much as could about getting the highest octane by mixing various available types. In the end I solved the problem by buying a KTM300 EXC.

With my Vee2 I find that gas without water/condensation in it runs best. And that leaving my bike with no gas in it over the winter was a bad idea. I'm still running that crap through the system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
True!

Gasoline is gasoline as it comes from the refinery. Its the proprietary additives package that each company uses that creates the "brand" and the octane rating. Higher octane fuel is not better quality from lower octane fuel. It simply has different additives to make it more resistant to pre-ignition,detonation and/or pinging.
Well said. The Oil companies have done a excellent job of brainwashing people to think their "Super, Premium" or whatever else they label their highest octane fuel is better than their base fuel. When in fact the additives to increase the octane really slow the burn rate and energy created by the fuel to stop detonation and/or pinging.

So any claims that running "premium"fuel will increase performance of an engine designed to work with 87 octane fuel is not correct. Now of you want to talk about fuels without ethanol that's a different story.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
968 Posts
For what it's worth: In 1990 I attempted a record at Bonneville and everyone in the Gas classes had to use fuel from a Sunoco truck on site. The technician had a book (no iPads yet) that had the displacement and compression ratio for my FZ700. He gave me a choice of getting 1, 2 or 3 liters which he filled into a lab jar. Then he squirted two separate liquids into that jar via a large eye dropper. As he did all that, another guy had drained my tank. I explained to him that I had ridden this bike to Utah from California and that I hope to ride it back. He assured me that if was not too "hot" for my engine and that when I was ready to head back he would give me enough to get past Wendover. He did but that gas came from a different nozzle. My only point is that all gasolines are not really the same.They are just in the middle of a range. (no, I didn't set a record but was not embarrassed)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
100LL AVGAS is far from "low lead". While the LL indicates that, it is simply a designator that came into play decades ago. AVGAS 100LL has a rather high lead content compared to what automotive fuels had. If you have oxygen sensors in your exhaust, you do NOT want to run AVGAS! It will quickly coat and ruin them.



The difference in low octane gasoline compared to high octane gasoline is not just in the additive package. Far from it. Lower octane fuels have more unstable hydrocarbons. The refining process can continue to lower those unstable hydrocarbons, which nets the higher octane fuels. Vapor pressure, and additives to adjust it, are added to both along with other additives to improve different properties of gasoline. But high octane fuel is NOT the same fuel as low octane before the additive packages are introduced. Most would assume there is regular, mid grade, and premium fuel in tanks below ground that is delivered from the refinery. Actually there is low octane and high octane. Blend pumps then blend these two grades to form the mid grade you buy.



Because high octane fuel is refined to a higher standard, there are some cases where it can produce more horsepower due to the energy content ( BTU per pound of fuel ). But it is NOT because of the octane rating, again simply because of the higher energy contained. In many cases lower octane fuel will actually make more horsepower as lower octane fuel can burn quicker and reach optimum cylinder pressure quicker. But this is very hard to test and prove, a dyno engine setup would be the only way to really prove it. It has been done, and the differences are very minor and not always repeatable across brands and runs of refined fuel. The only reason to run higher octane fuel is to get the most out of an engine designed for it. If not designed for high octane fuel, it is usually a waste of money as and improvement is likely a placebo effect.



We do agree that race fuel smell is intoxicating!


At our Shell fuel station that we had up until the early 2000s we did not blend reg and premium to get mid grade and I never seen a station that did that. We had 3 storage tanks that had the 3 grades.
In premium fuel you don’t just get the higher octane from certain brands, as you say you get additives that clean fuel systems and help to have a better burn in the combustion chamber. Thus you shouldn’t have to buy all the cleaning additives etc to your tank to keep injectors clean etc. Also up in Canada most or your premium fuels from the majors don’t contain ethanol. Big advantage there.
When I was racing sleds in the WSA I ran Shell premium and the brand I was riding 2 stroke oil, plus I was running stock sleds, I could run a jet size leaner than other guys running the same sled. Then I had an engine pulled apart at factory and they had never seen an engine so clean.
One other thing about additives in fuels. Look at F1 they use to run special fuels from fuel company sponsors, these special blends could add 100 hps or more, but 45 gallon drums of the stuff could cost $100,000 or more. To cut cost FIA outlawed it. Now they run close to pump gas. I would say the additives do make a difference in premium.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Official Stromtrooper.com Sponsor
Joined
·
5,079 Posts
At our Shell fuel station that we had up until the early 2000s we did not blend reg and premium to get mid grade and I never seen a station that did that. We had 3 storage tanks that had the 3 grades.
In premium fuel you don’t just get the higher octane from certain brands, as you say you get additives that clean fuel systems and help to have a better burn in the combustion chamber. Thus you shouldn’t have to buy all the cleaning additives etc to your tank to keep injectors clean etc. Also up in Canada most or your premium fuels from the majors don’t contain ethanol. Big advantage there.
Yes, at one time there were still some stations with 3 tanks. But I am not talking 15+ years ago. There were carry over stations that could not afford to upgrade to the new blend pumps. So, they could buy different grades. You say you have never seen a blend pump? Every pump with all three grades is almost guaranteed to be a blend pump. Years ago there was a regular pump, a mid grade pump ( many stations would only stock regular and premium ) for those that had enough sales to support it, and a premium pump. These were never blend pumps. But with the conversion to blend pumps you could pull up to ANY pump and fill up. Which effectively doubled or better how many vehicles could be filling up at one time. Which justified the expense of the blend pumps purchase and installation. Aside from a remote/rural station, I doubt you will find many pumps today that are not blend pumps.

The difference in cleaning additives between regular grade and premiums is not much if any. Used to be that was advertised as a reason to buy premium. But "top tier" standards have pretty much erased that now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
Yes, at one time there were still some stations with 3 tanks. But I am not talking 15+ years ago. There were carry over stations that could not afford to upgrade to the new blend pumps. So, they could buy different grades. You say you have never seen a blend pump? Every pump with all three grades is almost guaranteed to be a blend pump. Years ago there was a regular pump, a mid grade pump ( many stations would only stock regular and premium ) for those that had enough sales to support it, and a premium pump. These were never blend pumps. But with the conversion to blend pumps you could pull up to ANY pump and fill up. Which effectively doubled or better how many vehicles could be filling up at one time. Which justified the expense of the blend pumps purchase and installation. Aside from a remote/rural station, I doubt you will find many pumps today that are not blend pumps.



The difference in cleaning additives between regular grade and premiums is not much if any. Used to be that was advertised as a reason to buy premium. But "top tier" standards have pretty much erased that now.


We do things different in Canada.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,896 Posts
An SV1000 engine has been done, but it wasn't easy and nobody else has tried it to my knowledge? That's what getting another bike in the garage is for IMHO, but I understand that isn't an option for many. :smile2:
agreed, I've been spending the most time on my Vulcan 17000 nomad, but when I hope on the Vstrom for a ride it feels like a 200HP Superbike. The best performance mod i've ever made ! lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Re: Octane vs. horsepower
I once read a tech article on this in Road & Track. All I’ve managed to retain is the analogy that running an engine tuned for regular gas on premium expecting to get more horsepower is like putting size 11 track shoes on your size 9 feet and expecting to run faster.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
534 Posts
I'd have to see dyno tests showing any significant difference in power output from running different gasolines, excepting cases where the engine is retarding itself with lower octane fuel due to detonation (which the ECU detects with a knock sensor).

To be sure, not all gasolines are created equal. People don't pony up for VP Racing fuel just for the fun of it, I presume (though people have paid for lots of snake oil over the years).

But unless we're talking the "gasoline" they were using in Formula 1 cars in the 80s, some of which was engineered with compounds to add significant power (apparently), I would be highly surprised to see any major difference. Maybe a few percent one way or the other?

Fuel without oxygenates (alcohols) should provide more power, all else being equal, because they just don't have the energy density of non-oxygenated fuels. Ounce for ounce, alcohols just don't have the energy content of liquid hydrocarbons.
 
21 - 38 of 38 Posts
Top