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I was about to pull the trigger on some EBC pads for my 2011 Wee (FA231HH front right, FA229HH front left), but came across the following text on the seller's site: "These Pads are not for Street Use, Track or Race Use Only"

Should I be concerned about that?

That was from Wall Photos | Facebook btw.
 

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I didn't wear them out...only 5k on the bike so far, but I'm surprised at the amount of effort it takes to stop the bike quickly. I'm simply trying to improve the stopping power, and based upon what I've read on this site, the EBC HH pads seem to be the way to go.
 

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They are street pads, not race pads. I'm on my second set and the rotors are fine.
 

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My guess is that you'll get a bigger boost in stopping power from just bleeding the brakes properly. Dealers don't usually do a great job at it.

Galfer used to do deals where you get a set of pads when you buy their SS lines. If you really want to stop SS lines are sweet.
 

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My guess is that you'll get a bigger boost in stopping power from just bleeding the brakes properly. Dealers don't usually do a great job at it.

Galfer used to do deals where you get a set of pads when you buy their SS lines. If you really want to stop SS lines are sweet.
EBC HH pads need significantly less force than OEM pads. Bleeding only helps if there is air in the lines and SS lines only affect feel and usually not by that much unless the stock lines have softened.
 

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EBC HH pads need significantly less force than OEM pads. Bleeding only helps if there is air in the lines and SS lines only affect feel and usually not by that much unless the stock lines have softened.
I'd agree the HHs are going to need less force. In my experience every bike I've purchased for gotten back from the dealer after they messed with the brakes has had air in the line. Maybe bad luck for me, but I just think its something that is rarely done right. If the lines aren't bled right its a cheap and easy way to get some more braking power.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about SS lines only helping with feel. Even new rubber lines are going to expand more than steel braided lines, and that expansion should be taking up some of the force that would be directed into the caliper. I do agree expansion in rubber lines is more noticeable with older lines.
 

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When rubber lines expand, they cause an increase in the brake lever travel because more fluid occupies the lines. However, they do not cause any increase in lever pressure needed. The force required to balloon the lines is exactly the same as the force the expanded lines exert on the fluid. Those two forces cancel each other out.
 

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When rubber lines expand, they cause an increase in the brake lever travel because more fluid occupies the lines. However, they do not cause any increase in lever pressure needed. The force required to balloon the lines is exactly the same as the force the expanded lines exert on the fluid. Those two forces cancel each other out.
I am trying to travel back in time to when I was sitting in physics class and this was all a lot fresher in my mind :mrgreen:

When I installed SS lines on my sport bike a lot changed, so some of the results I noticed may have been attributable to other parts of the system rather than just expansion. For instance 2 lines directly from the master cylinder to each caliper instead of a splitter, brand new brake fluid and of course the system was freshly bled.

All of that said, I went from all the braking you could ask for with 2 fingers to only needing 1 finger.

Doing some reading brought me to Poiseuille's law (Hagen). Which essentially discusses friction within fluid traveling in a tube or pipe. This always exists, but my assertion would be that with the tube expanding and allowing the fluid to move in multiple directions you would have an increase in turbulence in the fluid and more friction causing a lose of force at the caliper.

Now, would that friction cause a perceptible loss? I'm not sure...but I'm still a big fan of SS lines.

What do you think Greywolf? Am I stretching? Attributing my improved braking to the wrong area? I do understand what you're saying about the forces cancelling out.
 

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There is a lot of personal perception involved in the feel of braking. I like to say whatever change feels good to a person is a successful change. That being said, I think care must be taken when reports are intended to influence somebody else.

Since I made a change to EBC HH pads and nothing else the first time I tried them and was surprised at the reduced effort, I know they grab more powerfully so must have a higher coefficient of friction so I'm comfortable in reporting that.

Smaller differences mean I'd rather report my experience rather than tell somebody they will have the same experience. I think fluid friction is a negligible force in braking dynamics. I understand SS line makers say Teflon liners have less friction than rubber so can be made smaller but I don't think it's a big deal.

Using a markedly higher CoF pad is going to make a bigger difference in effort than fluid dynamics. Air in lines or Teflon in a SS braid only affect fluid dynamics and lever travel, as long as the lever doesn't bottom, which are about feel, not power.

One place I did err here is by not saying my experience is limited to 2007 Wee brakes. Other years or models may have a higher CoF with stock pads.
 

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EBC HH pads need significantly less force than OEM pads. Bleeding only helps if there is air in the lines and SS lines only affect feel and usually not by that much unless the stock lines have softened.
Does Suzuki publish a service life for the brake lines, and recommend replacing them at specific intervals?
 

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I think the stock pads also have the HH cold & hot friction rating, but there is more to brake pad feel and performance than just the rating. EBC-HH and Galfer-HH both work very well.

"Rubber" brake hoses have a fiber reinforcing layer between the inner and outer tubes of ethylene propylene diene Monomer rubber. Every hose expands; the best expand very little. Every fluid compresses. As LeanAngle said, you can't change just one thing on the fluid side of the system, and for a real test you've got to change and compare one thing at a time. If anyone is installing new brake hoses as well as other parts, how about renewing the fluid and bleeding the system and test with stock hoses, then install the stainless reinforced hose and bleed and test again. It's not that the stainless hoses don't work very well, it is just that the improvement is little over stock hoses. Better gain for the money is to get the GSXR or Honda Nissin adapters from svracingparts.com plus good used calipers, or just put on a good used master cylinder that works better than the late model Wee master cylinder.
 

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Does Suzuki publish a service life for the brake lines, and recommend replacing them at specific intervals?
Suzuki recommends replacing brake and coolant hoses every four years, a wildly conservative policy.

Making changes one at a time is a good idea if evaluating the effect of a change.
 

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There is a lot of personal perception involved in the feel of braking. I like to say whatever change feels good to a person is a successful change. That being said, I think care must be taken when reports are intended to influence somebody else.

Since I made a change to EBC HH pads and nothing else the first time I tried them and was surprised at the reduced effort, I know they grab more powerfully so must have a higher coefficient of friction so I'm comfortable in reporting that.

Smaller differences mean I'd rather report my experience rather than tell somebody they will have the same experience. I think fluid friction is a negligible force in braking dynamics. I understand SS line makers say Teflon liners have less friction than rubber so can be made smaller but I don't think it's a big deal.

Using a markedly higher CoF pad is going to make a bigger difference in effort than fluid dynamics. Air in lines or Teflon in a SS braid only affect fluid dynamics and lever travel, as long as the lever doesn't bottom, which are about feel, not power.

One place I did err here is by not saying my experience is limited to 2007 Wee brakes. Other years or models may have a higher CoF with stock pads.
My SS line/pad experience was on a 2001 Honda F4i, which quite possibly started out with a much higher friction pad than the Wee does.

As far as bleeding brake lines for improved performance, over the years I've probably bled brakes for at least a dozen friends, all sport bikes fwiw, and all reported noticeable improvement.

I would imagine that in general looking for improved braking performance on sport bikes is likely producing incrementally smaller returns than on a strom. Kinda like trying to make a sport bike more comfortable...there's just more room for improvement. :mrgreen:
 

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I can see how you would get the ideas you have from sport bike experience.
 

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//
Doing some reading brought me to Poiseuille's law (Hagen). Which essentially discusses friction within fluid traveling in a tube or pipe. This always exists, but my assertion would be that with the tube expanding and allowing the fluid to move in multiple directions you would have an increase in turbulence in the fluid and more friction causing a lose of force at the caliper.

Now, would that friction cause a perceptible loss? I'm not sure...but I'm still a big fan of SS lines.//
Just how much flow do you think you have?

Next time you bleed your brakes, look at how much fluid comes out on each stroke of the lever. And that's a full stroke: more than required for stopping.

None of the fluid in the tube is going far.
 

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My SS line/pad experience was on a 2001 Honda F4i, which quite possibly started out with a much higher friction pad than the Wee does.

As far as bleeding brake lines for improved performance, over the years I've probably bled brakes for at least a dozen friends, all sport bikes fwiw, and all reported noticeable improvement.

I would imagine that in general looking for improved braking performance on sport bikes is likely producing incrementally smaller returns than on a strom. Kinda like trying to make a sport bike more comfortable...there's just more room for improvement. :mrgreen:
The biggest improvement from this is not removing the air, but cycling the old fluid that has picked up water moisture and replacing it with clean fluid, giving you better feel.
 

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The biggest improvement from this is not removing the air, but cycling the old fluid that has picked up water moisture and replacing it with clean fluid, giving you better feel.
That would be flushing rather than just bleeding. It's a matter of degree.
 
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