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HUGE amounts of money are being spent on electric cars.


In my world (Porsche) Porsche AG is in the process of rebuilding and expanding their factory in Stuttgart for their new Electric car which will be on sale in 2020. (The prototype was called "Mission E".)

They are spending about One Billion Euros to do so!

Other brands are likewise doing similar things.

The world is changing!

..Tom
 

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Ask the people on Puerto Rico their thoughts on electric cars. The electric car is just another infringement on privacy and liberty. Unpaid parking ticket? No charging for you. Just sayin.
 

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Yet no company has shown a profit on electric cars.

I am all for them. Loved the hybrid I just sold and I think that technology is worth paying for. Would I buy an all electric car? Under the right circumstances. But, there is no way I can justify an electric car financially if you look at the real costs of ownership.

Yet!

But that may change........
 
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EVs are an interesting idea. With the amount of miles driven and the number of vehicles in the states, I don’t see a complete replacement of the internal combustion engine working very well. The unintended consequences will be staggering. Battery disposal, excess demand on the output of the power grid, contamination from the large scale battery manufacturing plants. The number of charging stations and the time required for a charge will all be problematic.
 

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Lithium batteries are 100% recyclable and repairable and good for 6-8 years to 80%

Charging is done mostly off hours and in fact there are programs already where owners can feed 40% of their battery power back into the grid during peak hours - it will be good for an aging grid.

Lithium battery plants are excessively clean tech. The impact is actually the fossil fuel used to deliver raw materials.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel...reen-are-automotive-lithium-ion-batteries.htm

There are thousands of charging stations already in place and more every day

Global Electric Vehicle Charging Station Market Analysis & Growth Forecast at 30.8% CAGR between 2017 and 2025
Press release from: Market Research Reports Search Engine
MRRSE
MRRSE The electric vehicle charging station market report provides analysis for the period 2015–2025, wherein the period from 2017 to 2025 is the forecast period and 2016 is the base year. The report covers all the major trends and technologies playing a key role in electric vehicle charging station market growth over the forecast period. It also highlights the drivers, restraints, and opportunities expected to influence market’s growth during the said period. The study provides a holistic perspective on the electric vehicle charging station market’s growth throughout the above mentioned forecast period in terms of revenue and volume (in US$ Mn and Thousand units), across different geographies, including Asia Pacific, South America, North America, Europe, and Middle East & Africa (MEA).
https://www.openpr.com/news/778418/...ecast-at-30-8-CAGR-between-2017-and-2025.html

High powered ones charge in 20 minutes to 80% and Tesla has both a 10 minute unit in development and an automated battery swap station patented.

But here is the key ...it's a draw

The Cadillac Supercharger is one of 17 located at Meijers in six Midwest states, part of a network of 13 in Michigan. There are several more coming online soon, and three just across the border in Indiana and Ohio.

The stations are designed for road trippers rather than residents, who typically charge their vehicles at home.

“Normally I had to go to a gas station every single week,” Vogt said. “Now I only have to go somewhere besides my home when I’m going on a long trip.”

Meijer spokesperson Joe Hirschmugl said the charging stations are ideal for the retail setting.

"On average, our customers take about 45 minutes to shop," he said. "You can do a week's shopping here and drive away with a fully-charged car.
 
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Lithium batteries are 100% recyclable and repairable and good for 6-8 years to 80%



Charging is done mostly off hours and in fact there are programs already where owners can feed 40% of their battery power back into the grid during peak hours - it will be good for an aging grid.



Lithium battery plants are excessively clean tech. The impact is actually the fossil fuel used to deliver raw materials.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel...reen-are-automotive-lithium-ion-batteries.htm



There are thousands of charging stations already in place and more every day





https://www.openpr.com/news/778418/...ecast-at-30-8-CAGR-between-2017-and-2025.html



High powered ones charge in 20 minutes to 80% and Tesla has both a 10 minute unit in development and an automated battery swap station patented.


That is all great news and effective in our current numbers. I may be proved wrong but I foresee major problems when converting hundreds of millions of vehicles. 6-8 years is a drop in the bucket when discussing a replacement for fossil fuels. The things I mentioned are just a few concerns that come to my feeble mind. I’m sure there will be other unintended consequences that are as of now, not even considered. I’m not anti EV. I just suspect like many things that are proposed to be beneficial will end up creating their own source of problems.
 

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2040 timeline seems to be way too optimistic. Development and production of the next generation of EV's is underway but no one is able to explain how these countries will address that massive spike in electricity consumption. I guess they need to build thousands of new power plants across Europe which alone can cost tens of billions. I could be wrong but in the future we might see restrictions and quotas in regards to travel and electric vehicle use ...
 

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You ARE wrong - EVs do not require massive new sources of power. In fact they are a storage resource making existing power - notably making renewables far more efficient because they store additional power and let grids load level.

......

Ummm hundreds of millions of vehicles is an overstatement - it will work within the existing replacement cycle.
There is a tipping point where it makes no sense to continue to drive an ICE vehicle.

Copenhagen hurries that along with a 180% tax on new ICE vehicles. Other jurisdictions will move it along for various reasons.
In the US you are sheltered by very low fuel costs so the economics are not as compelling ....places like Norway the uptake on EV far outstripped gov expectations.

Tipping point comes around 25% of new car sales ....in Norway the program got EVs to 20% of new car sales in a heartbeat.

Each jurisdiction will be different and you can bet California will lead.

Hybrids will lead for a good while and distances on plug in hybrids on EV only are getting into the 40 mile range which is within most commuters range. So no range anxiety but little hydrocarbon fuel use.

One side effect is fuel providers need to react and add charging to their product mix but I suspect shopping areas will outdo them - using charging as a draw.

There will still be a long tail off for fossil vehicle fuels but for the heavy commuting regions that need clean vehicles ...they will force the issue

The Ford Bolt and the Tesla 3 both sell for average price of a similar ICE car and of course fuel costs are minimal, performance amazing.

We shall have to learn to be wary of EVs ...they shal eat us for lunch>:)
 
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Interesting that everyone assumes that the death of internal combustion means electric vehicles.

I would argue that we don't yet know what technology will take its place. An auto industry dominated by battery powered electric is only one possible outcome...
 

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I had a thought....if the highways become solar panels and there are millions of miles of them, the electric vehicles could take the charge directly from them as they travel.
all those flat roofed factories and malls and businesses could feed the grid as well as the solar farms developing all over the place.
Work on tidal power generators and an endless source is then available along our coast lines.
It could work, even with 2 wheeled vehicles.
A side effect could be that the roadway would monitor your speed and restrain vehicles from exceeding the speed limit. Horrors!
Then all those unemployed coal miners could get a nice clean jobs repairing robots at the Amazon warehouse or maintaining the robots that are making the electric vehicles that are saving the planet!
 

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There is lots of power available. Using highways for solar is entirely a non-starter.
 

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EVs should work like a slot car. Why carry batteries except for short distances where electrified roads are not available? Or inductive coupling etc.
 

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Ask the people on Puerto Rico their thoughts on electric cars. The electric car is just another infringement on privacy and liberty. Unpaid parking ticket? No charging for you. Just sayin.
What about electric cars in PR? Electricity isn't exactly a monopoly, you could put a PV site on the roof of your home and charge from that. I can't think of anything more off-the-grid. Do you have a refinery in your back yard, or is your plan woodgas if you become an enemy of the state?

I personally cannot wait until charge times are quick enough, and range good enough to fully replace the combustion engine. No more oil changes, valve adjustments and other tinkering. Running costs will be next to nothing, and a bike will last pretty much forever.

Plus, riding an electric bike is an incredible feeling. It's like being pushed by the hand of god, and just so smooth. I highly recommend finding one and test riding it.
 

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That is a good point about obtaining gas in a catastrophe. I hear electric bikes are amazing, but I am unsure about the battery technology and the charging efficiency. You ride one now? What is the charge time at various voltages and amperage? The amount of energy folded up in a gallon of fuel is pretty amazing to me. How it got there and the environmental impacts of extracting and burning are not zero but neither are the impacts for EVs.
 

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That is a good point about obtaining gas in a catastrophe. I hear electric bikes are amazing, but I am unsure about the battery technology and the charging efficiency. You ride one now? What is the charge time at various voltages and amperage? The amount of energy folded up in a gallon of fuel is pretty amazing to me. How it got there and the environmental impacts of extracting and burning are not zero but neither are the impacts for EVs.
A buddy of mine has a Zero. It was a really cool experience riding it - no clutch, almost silent. You just give the throttle a twist, and it starts nudging you forward.

Battery tech definitely has lots of room for improvement. You get less range in cold, less range at higher speed (to similar to gas). Takes anywhere from 2-11 hours to charge depending on the capacity of the battery, and the amount of current you're throwing at it. I see that as the biggest limitation right now. Unlike gasoline where you can haul ass and cover 200-some miles at a stretch with a two minute break in between, you've got considerable lag time on an all electric road trip.

Maybe someone will come up with a swappable standard battery, where you put down a deposit, ride until empty, and change it out at a station. Though for motorcyclists that like to explore remote areas, that will really have to catch on to be viable, and wouldn't scale well for group riding.
 

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There is lots of power available. Using highways for solar is entirely a non-starter.
No one told the Koreans that, here is one of their highways:

 

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That's just a right of way ... any land will do.....it's not a very efficient array....maybe it powers their highway lights.
What happens when it snows, salt build up etc...bad idea.
 

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Sure they do

You ARE wrong - EVs do not require massive new sources of power. In fact they are a storage resource making existing power - notably making renewables far more efficient because they store additional power and let grids load level.
Even taking into account the better efficiency of EV's (not entirely realized due to inefficiency of charging and self-discharging of batteries), we'll be replacing 143 BILLION gallons of gasoline burned per year, at 33 KWH per gallon. That's a whole lot of electricity. While it is possible that residential installation of solar cells can pick up a large part of this (and, in fact, will work with the car's battery to store power for night time use) the power industry's real hope for a future is that demand will expand, so there will still be a need for at least some central power production and distribution. Yeas, they will charge at off-peak hours, but current levels of power production will not suffice.

Was reading about the solar car races in Australia. I'm hoping to run across a technical article, because the ones I read were inconsistent with what I know about solar power. Solar power is about 1 KW per square meter, at best. With 40% efficient cells (quite high by current standards) you need about 2 square meters/HP of output. While the cars are highly efficient (aero, hard narrow tires, etc.) it looks like the roof area might be 6 sq meters, meaning 3 HP. Clearly practical cars will have more power, meaning external charging and batteries.

Frankly, except for the CO2 output, IC engines are remarkably clean. An alternative future is to use solar power to synthesize liquid fuel from atmospheric CO2 and water, making the fuel carbon neutral. Or a hydrogen economy eliminates CO2 generation, and many solar cells show promise as a means to generate hydrogen fuel from water. Although fuel cells may replace the IC engine, and drive the EV.

Future (near future) battery tech will allow for much higher capacity and much quicker charging, eliminating the two major problems with plug-in EV's. But there will be a power generation gap to fill.
 
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