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Hehe ...cayman actually...I'm always surprised how big and powerful jaguars are ....and quite happy in the water.
(I know but croc fit the thread better.)

Now come up with something creative with the Jag?

..Tom
 

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Any answers? Other than the standard answer of “Ego,” I honestly don’t know.

I ask because I’d like to understand this better than I do. No more - no less. Arguments will be respectfully declined. Thanks.

Cheers.
easy, I live in New Hampshire, it's my choice whether or not to wear a helmet, as it is my choice to click a seatbelt

it all comes down to CHOICES, assessment of risk

for instance, my risk mid day, mid week, in rural northern new england, is probably 1000 times less than metropolitan Boston during commuting hours

I should probably put non slip grip in my shower too
 

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Loved the Road Runner cartoon. I haven't been in a street crash in about 50 years. Blind luck sometimes. I still wear gear because one of these days it's going to catch up with me and I'll go down. I'd rather have the gear on than the skin off. That's just me. I like my skin.
 

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Can that be true? You cannot ride a bicycle without a helmet but it is allowable to ride a motorcycle, which can travel 10 times faster? :confused:
Anybody see the inconsistency here?
Delaware is the inconsistency, lol
 

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Personally, I prefer not to ride with anyone who skips ATGATT. Yeah, ATGATT doesn’t make us invincible to risks. But – proven – it does improve our safety odds. IMHO - that should matter?
Cheers.
(I've skipped all the other replies.)
I esp. agree with this statement of the OP, primarily for this reason- if I'm riding with you, you are a friend, even if we just met. If you crash while wearing full protective riding gear, you have a better chance of less severe injury, and helping you out will be an easier task for me, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

If you crash while wearing street clothing and a beanie helmet, and you leave a bunch of your flesh as a 200-foot red smear on the road, it's a bad enough thing you've done to yourself, but that's a pretty g** d*** terrible thing that you have done to ME, mentally scarring me for life while having to render emergency life saving assistance to you as your leg is ground down to the bone or half your jaw is missing. Or worse. Friends don't do that to friends.

You want to ride naked down the highway (jeans and a tee shirt are being naked on a motorcycle), fine. But how about showing your riding friends, and the other passers-by that will stop to provide life-saving assistance, some courtesy and respect by wearing appropriate safety gear that will help limit the amount of trauma (yours and theirs) that THEY will have to deal with as you lie unconscious, or screaming, or dead, on the road.

Think I'm BS'ing here? In heavy rush hour traffic now ground down to a crawl, I rolled past an interstate car wreck 6-7 years ago, police were just arriving. A left lane SUV driver wasn't paying attention as he entered a right hand curve. He hit the cable barrier, tumbled and spun the car a couple times and came to a stop on the driver's side of the car, driver's door facing traffic. He was belted in, hanging partly up-side-down, convulsing as his head hung out the window inches above the ground, the top of his scull was gone from his forehead back. (Later news reports stated he was dead at the scene.) I still remember it as though it happened yesterday, and i'm shaking as I type this. How, my friend, do you think my life will be affected if I'm the one having to stop and render aid to you and parts of your body don't exist anymore?

It's one thing to wave the freedom flag over your own head and ride how you want to, but start thinking about those people that are going to do the humane thing and stop to help you. Do you really want to scar them for life with the images of your personal disaster? Do you? Freedom is balanced with responsibility, to yourself and to others.

Steve.
 

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(I've skipped all the other replies.)
I esp. agree with this statement of the OP, primarily for this reason- if I'm riding with you, you are a friend, even if we just met. If you crash while wearing full protective riding gear, you have a better chance of less severe injury, and helping you out will be an easier task for me, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

If you crash while wearing street clothing and a beanie helmet, and you leave a bunch of your flesh as a 200-foot red smear on the road, it's a bad enough thing you've done to yourself, but that's a pretty g** d*** terrible thing that you have done to ME, mentally scarring me for life while having to render emergency life saving assistance to you as your leg is ground down to the bone or half your jaw is missing. Or worse. Friends don't do that to friends.

You want to ride naked down the highway (jeans and a tee shirt are being naked on a motorcycle), fine. But how about showing your riding friends, and the other passers-by that will stop to provide life-saving assistance, some courtesy and respect by wearing appropriate safety gear that will help limit the amount of trauma (yours and theirs) that THEY will have to deal with as you lie unconscious, or screaming, or dead, on the road.

Think I'm BS'ing here? In heavy rush hour traffic now ground down to a crawl, I rolled past an interstate car wreck 6-7 years ago, police were just arriving. A left lane SUV driver wasn't paying attention as he entered a right hand curve. He hit the cable barrier, tumbled and spun the car a couple times and came to a stop on the driver's side of the car, driver's door facing traffic. He was belted in, hanging partly up-side-down, convulsing as his head hung out the window inches above the ground, the top of his scull was gone from his forehead back. (Later news reports stated he was dead at the scene.) I still remember it as though it happened yesterday, and i'm shaking as I type this. How, my friend, do you think my life will be affected if I'm the one having to stop and render aid to you and parts of your body don't exist anymore?

It's one thing to wave the freedom flag over your own head and ride how you want to, but start thinking about those people that are going to do the humane thing and stop to help you. Do you really want to scar them for life with the images of your personal disaster? Do you? Freedom is balanced with responsibility, to yourself and to others.

Steve.
There’s no convincing someone that wants to ride without a helmet that they should do so. I started riding in New Hampshire (no helmet required). I wore a helmet. Most riders I came across did not. I’d roll up to a light fully geared-up and other riders would look at me like I had two heads. “Live free or die.”

This topic is along the lines of trying to convince people with kids not to leave unsecured loaded firearms around the house.
 

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Why do we care what other riders do or don't wear?

I'm generally ATGATT (My Roadcrafter is so easy and comfy to wear I can't see why I wouldn't wear it) but really don't care what others wear.

For every mile ridden there is a 0.00000025% chance of a fatality on a motorcycle. Another way of putting it is there is one motorcycle death per 3,995,205.75 miles ridden. Gear, apart from a helmet, probably makes little difference in those numbers.

You are 17.5 times more like to get injured than killed so that means 1 injury for every 228,296.47 miles ridden.

(Stats from here: How likely are you to get in a motorcycle accident?)

So as much as I'm ATGATT I understand odds are very low of an injury or fatality.

..Tom
We care about others not wearing ATGATT because when insurance companies have to pay out money for injured riders, it drives up our insurance costs, or at least that's what insurance companies tell me.
 

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We care about others not wearing ATGATT because when insurance companies have to pay out money for injured riders, it drives up our insurance costs, or at least that's what insurance companies tell me.
Paying for dead people is cheap, it is the folks who survive that are expensive. So I'm not sure that the not wearing a helmet crowd puts more strain on insurance than the broke almost every bone in my body and survived crowd.
 

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Where I am from you have to wear a helmet. Lafemiller is absolutely right that motorcycle injuries cost us all through insurance premiums. Old Jeep is absolutely right that paying out for dead people is cheap compared to fixing busted up people. I still hold no judgement and believe people should be able to decide for themselves. I will ride with people with gear or without. It’s not my decision. But I have to pay almost $2000 a year to insure my bike, so I can’t say that people wearing riding gear doesn’t effect me. In 2008 I was riding a Hayabusa, insurance was $800 a year. I got rid of it because I knew that change was coming. By 2012, 4 years later, the same bike is $3600 a year. I do get a 20% discount due to a good driving record but prices are still extremely high.
 

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Where I am from you have to wear a helmet. Lafemiller is absolutely right that motorcycle injuries cost us all through insurance premiums. Old Jeep is absolutely right that paying out for dead people is cheap compared to fixing busted up people. I still hold no judgement and believe people should be able to decide for themselves. I will ride with people with gear or without. It’s not my decision. But I have to pay almost $2000 a year to insure my bike, so I can’t say that people wearing riding gear doesn’t effect me. In 2008 I was riding a Hayabusa, insurance was $800 a year. I got rid of it because I knew that change was coming. By 2012, 4 years later, the same bike is $3600 a year. I do get a 20% discount due to a good driving record but prices are still extremely high.
Wow, insurance in Canada is expensive. What kind of coverage do you get for 2K a year? I don't pay much more than that a year for 3 cars and 2 bikes.
 

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Our insurance is controlled by our provincial government. We can not shop around, 1 choice, with no competition. For 2k a year it is at least full coverage. They cover the bike for fire, theft, crash whatever and fix me up if I get hurt. The price of insurance here has severely hurt the motorcycle industry. The dealer I just bought from said he has had a 60% reduction in bike sales after insurance went up in 2009. No sign of any recovery. I attended the public meeting, when they proposed the increases. There was a large turnout of people but it made no difference. The insurance company said costs from injury claims were the reason. They didn’t care about the cost of the bike. If you crash a multistrada or a KLR, didn’t make much difference, the cost is in the injury claims.
 

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Wow, insurance in Canada is expensive. What kind of coverage do you get for 2K a year? I don't pay much more than that a year for 3 cars and 2 bikes.
It is but realize there are 10 provinces and 3 territories and they often have very different methods of providing insurance (some government, some semi-free enterprise, etc)

The result is insurance costs can vary quite a bit fro province to province to territory.

..Tom
 

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We care about others not wearing ATGATT because when insurance companies have to pay out money for injured riders, it drives up our insurance costs, or at least that's what insurance companies tell me.
I
The same statement can be applied by car drivers as a reason why all motorcycles should be prohibited.

..Tom
 

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Our insurance is controlled by our provincial government. We can not shop around, 1 choice, with no competition. For 2k a year it is at least full coverage. They cover the bike for fire, theft, crash whatever and fix me up if I get hurt. The price of insurance here has severely hurt the motorcycle industry. The dealer I just bought from said he has had a 60% reduction in bike sales after insurance went up in 2009. No sign of any recovery. I attended the public meeting, when they proposed the increases. There was a large turnout of people but it made no difference. The insurance company said costs from injury claims were the reason. They didn’t care about the cost of the bike. If you crash a multistrada or a KLR, didn’t make much difference, the cost is in the injury claims.
Personal injury on a bike policy is a rare thing here. My medical would be covering that, not the bike policy.
 

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Personal injury on a bike policy is a rare thing here. My medical would be covering that, not the bike policy.
Yep. That's an interesting difference.

Here in the US, medical coverage is the primary payer, but then they try to recover from other sources through subrogation if there's possibly another responsible party or policy.

When I was hit by a car in 2011, the unlicensed driver had only the minimum auto insurance (a miracle the car was insured; it was her Mom's car), which didn't even begin to cover my medical costs, pain & suffering, etc. I needed a lawyer to negotiate with my medical insurance or they would have yoinked every penny of the piffling settlement I got.

After hitting the deer in 2013, I got at least a dozen calls from assorted idiots at my medical insurance who couldn't quite grasp the concept that whitetail deer do not usually carry liability insurance.



As far as trauma to others, that's an interesting point. When I hit that deer and broke my leg and wrist in 2013, the two guys following me were very shaken up, even though there was no gore because I was wearing full head-to-toe gear.

Both had also been in or witnessed other serious accidents, including a fatal accident, and I've witnessed or assisted in the aftermath of other accidents with injury. It does a lot of mental damage. It's absolutely traumatic even if you're not injured or directly involved.
 

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I'm in the category of "Do what you want, suffer as you will." Personally, when riding my Wee or the Connie, I'm ATGATT, gloves, boots, full-bucket SHOEI, jacket, chaps, etc. BUT....I have a fast bicycle that will easily hit 40 MPH downhill. The fastest I ever went many years ago was 52.5 according to the speedo. Scared spitless. And I do that in Spandex shorts, a T-shirt and dixie-cup bicycle helmet. The old saying, "The road doesn't care what you fall off of" is very true. While wearing all my motorcycle safety gear would make my bicycling much safer because I'd never go more than about 5 MPH, and the risk of getting hit by a car is even greater when bicycling, for some reason my brain just seems willing to accept that. I can't explain why.
 

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I ride a bicycle on the street with a helmet and some flimsy gloves as my only protection. I realize I'm not going that fast but in many ways bicycles on roads are just as unsafe.

I don't understand motorcycle riders who are much less safe than being in a car no matter what they wear feeling like they must be ATGATT. It is all a degree of risk.
 
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