[pdxryder]

Hello all,

I am new to stromtrooper and pretty new to my Wee. I have searched the forums for this issue, but if it is already here, please send me in the direction of that thread.

I live in OR, but I have a California DL650 with the evaporative canister in it. When I top off, or if the pump doesn't click off early enough even I can have problems running the wee afterwards... generally idling rough, surging through 6-8k rpm, hesitating and dying if I don't give it enough gas when I get in gear. This lasts roughly the first 20 miles or so then it evens out to performing great like normal.

I've heard that this is flooding caused by the canister and bypassing it is relatively simple? Does this sound right to anyone?

Otherwise, I think my bike and I are in a general love-love relationship :mrgreen:

 

[greywolf]

I doubt the canister is the problem unless you are carefully filling the tank in slow spurts after the fuel reaches the bottom of the filler tube. You would have to get the gas to reach the vent opening at the extreme top. You can get the fuel to the top of the opening then watch it recede as the air leaves through the vent to allow room for the fuel to rise around the neck.

You can put a new longer tube from the tank vent connection down along with the cap area overflow tube to the bottom of the bike to check if it makes a difference. Be sure to plug the tube from the canister to the throttle bodies to prevent a vacuum leak if you try it. If it makes no difference, please re-connect the canister to avoid dumping fuel fumes into the atmosphere unnecessarily. If it does make a difference, try looking inside the tank to see if the metal vent tube is split or otherwise damaged.

I don't remember seeing anything about rough running only after a fill up. That can happen to carbureted bikes not on reserve if there is water in the tank but fuel injected bikes get their flow from the bottom of the tank and would get water regardless of the fill condition. Maybe somebody else has had a similar experience and can shed some light on the subject.

Let us know if you get any further information.

 

[MikeB]

Can we assume that if you only fill partway you don't get this symptom? If so, it sounds like the canister is about the only candidate.

I've never encountered this with the Wee, but on a previous BMW I found it was possible to overfill, and this was particularly so if I filled that tank with a hot engine and then let the bike set for a few minutes, causing the fuel to expand.

There may be some anomaly in your tank's plumbing. If it were me I'd pull the hose off the canister 1) to see if the symptoms cease; and 2) to see if any fuel dribbles out after a fill.

Also, is it possible the PO put a vent hole in the filler neck to allow higher fills? See previous BMW note, above (shameful blush).

 

[greywolf]

Here's the system. To temporarily bypass the canister, run a longer surge hose vented to atmosphere opening in a place that wont drip fuel on anything. Also take the purge hose off the canister and plug it. The fuel shut off valve closes if the bike is dropped to keep fuel from flooding the canister. The top of the breather pipe is well above the bottom of the short fuel filler pipe and it takes a concerted effort to displace the air from the pocket over the pipe end.

 

[LordSmoke]

...You can get the fuel to the top of the opening then watch it recede as the air leaves through the vent to allow room for the fuel to rise around the neck...

Sorry for the (hopefully) minor threadjack - but the above is how I top off my tank (no CA cannister AFAIK). I have never been sure where the gas was settling into, but there has never been any overflow under the bike or anywhere else for that matter. Is that somehow wrong?

 

[greywolf]

If filling the tank that way works for you, then it's fine. Check for a canister though. If the fuel level can drop in the filler pipe during fill up, the fuel is displacing air and the air is going somewhere. With this arrangement, the air goes through the canister into the throttle bodies. Without it, the only tank vent is in the fuel cap and the trapped air shouldn't have any place to go.

 

[MikeB]

Thinking about it, the "plumbing anomaly" I mentioned earlier may be that the overflow pipe attachment near the top of the tank has come loose (or was never properly attached), allowing it to dangle a little too low. Unfortunately, the only way to inspect this is to pull the entire fuel pump apparatus out of the port on the bottom of the tank and look in. You will be able to see the filler neck and associated plumbing all right, but what a job!

And even then you may not be able to reach the offending fitting to put it in place.

If you had access to one of those fiber-optic inspection thingies that MIGHT allow you to look around inside the tank through the filler neck, but it would have to be flexible as hell. See if you can borrow one from your proctologist.:mrgreen:

 

[OydnaR]

Sorry for the (hopefully) minor threadjack - but the above is how I top off my tank (no CA cannister AFAIK). I have never been sure where the gas was settling into, but there has never been any overflow under the bike or anywhere else for that matter. Is that somehow wrong?

fwiw, I've never had the fuel overflow while I was sitting at the pump the fuel is coming out of a cool underground fuel tank

but I have had it piss out my overflow a half hour later on a hot day after the fuel has had a chance to expand

the filler neck and air gap are there for a reason

 

[LordSmoke]

...but I have had it piss out my overflow a half hour later on a hot day after the fuel has had a chance to ...

Yes, I am aware of that. I was once (many years ago) the fuel guy for a trucking co. in SC. If I topped off the gas trucks and parked them in the sun, I would get a gusher after a while. I usually fill up just before a decent ride, so there is some consumption before that happens.

Fairly positive I don't have a canister.

 

[Improperly Torqued]

If you had access to one of those fiber-optic inspection thingies that MIGHT allow you to look around inside the tank through the filler neck, but it would have to be flexible as hell.

I'm not sure you need to get that fancy. I have a telescoping inspection mirror for which I paid a couple of bucks at a hardware store. I use it for checking brake wear, cuz my fat head won't fit under the fork far enough. With the right light, it would work ok for looking inside the tank.

 

[der_saeufer]

Thinking about it, the "plumbing anomaly" I mentioned earlier may be that the overflow pipe attachment near the top of the tank has come loose (or was never properly attached), allowing it to dangle a little too low. Unfortunately, the only way to inspect this is to pull the entire fuel pump apparatus out of the port on the bottom of the tank and look in. You will be able to see the filler neck and associated plumbing all right, but what a job!

I've seen it happen on a BMW with the filler neck drilled as well, but this one had had the canister removed for no apparent reason, so liquid fuel came out of the vent tube under the bike.

It's a definite possibility; in theory it's not possible with everything intact because you can't get the tank full enough to hit that breather with liquid fuel, but a hole in the filler neck or a loose breather connection would definitely do it...

Without it, the only tank vent is in the fuel cap and the trapped air shouldn't have any place to go.

And now I know why my Wee smells like gas from the seat parked in the sun but my KLR doesn't. The non-CA Wee's drain tube is only for water that collects around the filler, then? Both bikes were originally sold outside CA, so neither has a canister, but the KLR has a vent tube.

 

[greywolf]

Right. The drain tube is the connection to the hole in the left side of the cap well above the seal. Rain water or fuel overflow will be carried away through that tube.

 

[MikeB]

I'm not sure you need to get that fancy. I have a telescoping inspection mirror for which I paid a couple of bucks at a hardware store. I use it for checking brake wear, cuz my fat head won't fit under the fork far enough. With the right light, it would work ok for looking inside the tank.

But...but...that's LOW TECH! There's an electro-gizmo toy-buying opportunity here. Get with the program, man.:mrgreen:

But I hope the OP uses your idea and reports back.

 

[pdxryder]

Hey thanks everyone! I will run to the hardware store and have a few things to look into this weekend for sure...

I am a little suspect now of damage inside the tank, as the bike was put down by the PO (minor dent in tank /fairings scratched.) I had even disconnected the tank looking through everything across the board, but didn't look inside the tank.

and just to clarify a few things about my wee-

- yes, it runs/performs great aside from this hiccup when it tops off (sometimes it doesn't get topped off and runs roughly)

- I rode the bike from Sacramento out through Eastern Oregon, then back to Portland when I got it, and in the middle of nowhere (Denio, NV) I had topped off my bike to rub in the fact I was getting such a better range than the Ducati multistradas I was with (had already had to bring gas back to them when they ran out at the same point :mrgreen, but fuel started pouring out of the back of the canister, it flooded the engine and we spent three hours to get it running again:thumbdown:. It was hot and we had just finished a long leg.

- Other than it just idles a little rougher/lower, dies as I engage the clutch without enough gas and surges/ hesitates around 6-8K, for the first 20 miles or so after the fill up issue, I just really don't want to have to carefully watch this and would like to hold as much fuel as possible for the road.

 

[greywolf]

It sounds like the vent tube may be bent away from the top of the tank or broken. You either need to get it back where it belongs with no leaks or replace the filler cap with a vented cap from a non canister fuel tank and plug the vent and purge tubes if you want to fill the tank.

 

[Chuck_U_Farley]

Do all wee's have evap canisters or just the cali versions?

 

[greywolf]

Do all wee's have evap canisters or just the cali versions?

Just the E33s in the USA. E-3s do not. That basically means the CA legal bikes. I bought my bike in Ohio and it is an E-33.

 

[xDownSetx]

ryder, give this thread a quick read. Guy had the vent break off inside his tank though his refused to run, fuel pump was jammed with the vent. There are pictures near the end of the thread of where the vent is located.

http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl650-specific-wee-strom/42796-wee-breaks-2-blocks-bike-shop.html

 

[MikeB]

It sounds like the vent tube may be bent away from the top of the tank or broken. You either need to get it back where it belongs with no leaks...

THAT will be the repair job of the century, requiring the dexterity of a heart surgeon and some very unusual tools.:mrgreen:

I think the plug-and-go approach is more likely. If the thing is broken off entirely (as in the referenced thread) you'll probably have to take off the bottom port where the fuel pump resides to extract it unless you can shake it down to a front corner and get a magnet on it -- assuming the cap is ferrous.

 

[pdxryder]

Fuel Vapor Separator/ Breather Pipe

So after a purchase of one of those mirrored inspection tools and a little looking around, it looks that the suspicions are correct, its the fuel vapor separator/ breather pipe. Its missing and apparently broken off. :thumbdown: I was able to take a few pics, and I apologize for the resolution.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XvuHzh8KTIc/TlRWnwgZCBI/AAAAAAAAAy4/YWD_O38wkr0/s640/IMAG0712.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Qu7kAoJ0Djw/TlRYgtfPvnI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/VWFGH-spJts/s640/IMAG0706.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ol_vO1rx1uc/TlRYZ_KwvVI/AAAAAAAAAzM/v-0_IB9YrBY/s640/IMAG0707.jpg

That little orange piece on the left of the bracket is part of the broken tubing... I'm assuming the part is floating in my tank somewhere.

Is it crazy talk to think I could use some JB weld in there if I got another part/ tube somehow? (Is that possible/ where?) Or would the gas dissolve it? (JB weld) Yes, it would be a pain to seal it on the opposite side, but I feel that with the right tools it would be doable (as you mentioned, MikeB...)

Other approach as mentioned is taking off the tank and pulling it out from the bottom... but it looks like the bracket that the fuel vapor separator connects to is attached to the tank. This would allow me to easily recover the part, still maybe the same pain of re-attaching it.

I like the idea of reconnecting it rather than fixing it to perform like a non E-33, I've not been able to find any filler caps online!

Much thanks to Greywolf, Downset, MikeB and all of you for leading me this far...