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Discussion Starter #1
Hope I am putting this in the right place. I see another slightly different thread:
http://www.stromtrooper.com/off-topic-member-therapy/101961-i-want-lift-rear-wheel-2.html

I do *not* want to lift the rear wheel at all. But, I'm a new rider, and I'm a bit worried - is this even possible, on accident, if I jam on my front brake at freeway speeds?

On a road or dirt bicycle, it's pretty easy to do a "stoppie" or even (accidentally) an endo, where the bike flips over forwards. You might do a stoppie on purpose, but not an endo. In my world, "endo" means you are hitting the ground and your bike is coming down on top of you.

Definitely not something you want with a 500-pound motorcycle.

On a bicycle, if you're an experienced rider you learn 1) to get a feel for how much weight is on the front versus rear wheel, 2) to put your body weight and rear end waaaay back, so the bike seat is in your chest, if you want to brake extremely hard. With proper weight placement, you can make the front tire skid (whh is fine in a straight line & shouldn't make you crash). Of course, usually you don't want to do that. But in any case, you can go 60mph on a bicycle, hit the front brake as hard as you can (except without making it skid) so you are maxing out the static friction - and come to a stop that way, which stops you in the absolute shortest distance possible. I've done it many times. But, you have to know what you're doing.

BTW the other thing you learn on a bicycle is this: everyone who has ridden seriously, like racing etc, if you told them they could only have one brake, they would pick the front brake. Inexperienced people choose the back brake.

So anyway, I'm a bit terrified on my daily commute (speeds average around 85 miles per hour - uh, 137 kph) that I'm gonna have to jam HARD on the front brake, and I'm gonna do an endo and get crushed by my bike. Yes, I know I'm not supposed to jam on the brakes suddenly, and yes I know swerving is usually the better option, but in a split-second situation, intuition and fear take over, and swerving isn't always an option.

I do have ABS. Not clear what difference that makes, since I know from bicycle experience that it's perfectly possible to endo without locking up the front brake.

Thanks!
 

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FORUM GODFATHER.....R.I.P. PAT
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It's possible. I've seen it done on a non ABS Wee. The info that comes with ABS models warns that ABS does not prevent a Stoppie.
 

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I endo'ed my 2008 DL650 last June, but unfortunately I was going 65mph at the time and ended up flying 150 feet in the air ahead of my bike before we both hit the ground and rolled for a while. I ended up with a broken left wrist and broken fifth metacarpal bone in my right hand. The bike was totaled. I wouldn't recommend repeating this "trick" to anyone though. Replaced the bike with a 2009 DL650 with only 6,000kms on the odometer two months after the accident. My wife thinks I am crazy.
 

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train your brain

train your brain to not "grab a handful" in panic mode

whats the best way to train?

make the mistake once! (at a lower speed, not in traffic)

else practice hard braking on empty roads coming up to some marker (target)
 

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Your bicycle experience will serve you well in that you know that you need to make a point of practicing hard braking to get a feel for what the bike does and what its maximum limits are.
Doing an endo is certainly possible but not inevitable. In 43 years of riding I've never done one nor been anywhere close to it.
However, if it remains a concern I will help you seek out an early /6 bmw with the first generation of their disc brakes. I virtually guarantee that a stoppie won't be done with one of those. In fact its fairly hard to get it to stop at all. (the original abs and, unfortunately, anti-stop brakes).
 

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In the early '90s when I was more of an idiot than I am right now... I tried doing stoppies on my GXR750... It took practice but I managed to do them... Point I am trying to make is... I think a stoppie is more difficult to do accidently than you think... Just practice braking and getting the feel of what the front brake and wheel are doing during the stopping process...
 

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...
I do *not* want to lift the rear wheel at all. But, I'm a new rider, and I'm a bit worried - is this even possible, on accident, if I jam on my front brake at freeway speeds?
...
It is possible but I suspect in most cases you are more likely to lock the front wheel. On a non-abs bike this generally results in the bike falling down (which is not a good thing either.)

Some might suggest buying an underperforming bike with poor brakes to eliminate the chance of this happening but having less braking ability is probably not the best way to increase your safety.

I think your best defence is learning ahead of time how you and your bike (and any vehicle you drive/ride) will react in extreme conditions and training yourself to react in the best possible way. As others have mentioned practice in a safe environment, ideally with professional training, is the best way.

..Tom
 

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I'm a noob and the diving front end has scared me a few times but like the others have said before me practice, practice, practice. Get out on a back road with no traffice and practice hard stops.

What I haven't seen in this particular thread is "following distance" keep it long until you get better at braking and it's not a bad idea even after you get good at braking.

Another recent benefit of following distance I have noticed is that I have been able to start avoiding complete foot on the ground stops at traffic lights.
 

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Yes. V-Stroms are capable of stoppiies.

I have done it on my Vee.

Freakin' scary...
 

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Yes. V-Stroms are capable of stoppiies.

I have done it on my Vee.

Freakin' scary...
Yeah but you are substantially more "front loaded" than most riders and can do it at a standstill just by leaning over the front of the bike! :)

..Tom
 

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If you haven't already done so, take a rider saftey course ("Gearing Up" course where I live). Take the drills they have and practice them. Repeatedly. If you are nervous about a high speed highway commute, then don't do it! Get up earlier and take a slower route. Riding should be about relaxing, not stressing yourself out. In a year or two, take a refresher course. Far too often I meet riders who I wouldn't want within a city block of me, who say they've been riding for 20 years and they know everything. Bad habits develop with time.

If you find yourself in the situation where you grab a handfull of brake and either lock up the front wheel or do a stoppie ... well, you've made a dozen mistakes earlier that could have avoided the situation you got yourself into. Front end dive is good. Weight transfer is good. Once you get the weight onto the front tire, it's very difficult to lock up, and your braking distance shortens. I've been riding a long time. I've hit the front brakes hard lots of times. Not once have I come close to doing a stoppie (though I do think a rolling stoppie is the best of all the stunt tricks). This includes riding a ZRX that had been mod'ed within an inch of it's life, and just 2 fingers on the front brakes was enough to send my nether regions attempting to modify the tank shape and giving the rest of me a great look at the bugs on the headlight.
 

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FORUM GODFATHER.....R.I.P. PAT
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Stoppies aside, go to a big, empty parking lot and practice good braking and swerving maneuvers until they become second nature. Here: http://www.stromtrooper.com/general-v-strom-discussion/102401-basic-practice-drills-msf.html
I take exception to the one foot down stop part of the exercise and I'm a former MSF instructor. If you're more comfortable taking the right foot off the brake at the end of the stop, do it. The rear brake has almost no influence on the last few feet of the stop. Otherwise, practice like your life depended on it until you build the procedure into your muscle memory so you react without thinking. It might.
 

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Amen to the earlier responses. You're far more likely just to lock the front wheel and have it slip out from under you, which is an extremely quick way to hit the ground hard. Practice Practice Practice and don't follow closely! I write from my own (stupid) experience.
 

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I take exception to the one foot down stop part of the exercise and I'm a former MSF instructor. If you're more comfortable taking the right foot off the brake at the end of the stop, do it. The rear brake has almost no influence on the last few feet of the stop. Otherwise, practice like your life depended on it until you build the procedure into your muscle memory so you react without thinking. It might.
I fully agree.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hey, thanks for all the replies. Man, that was fast!

I'm not actually terrified. That was an exaggeration. "Concerned" is more like it. By now (9 months, 8000 mi) I am confident enough that my main concern now is over-confidence.

But, it *is* very nice to know that, yes, you can in fact accidentally do an endo at freeway speeds if you grab too much front brake. Thanks a ton for that.

Also, if there are any other general forums out there for safety tips, would anybody mind pointing them out? I took the MSF course, but I've got tons more questions now that the course didn't cover (maybe b/c it was a beginner course; or maybe it did cover them but I don't remember lol) E.g., what really causes a lowside most of the time - outside of road grease, is it bad throttle/brake management more than anything else? (I have virtually no chicken strips left at this point so I started to wonder.) What about having first gear engaged at a stop light... really, what's so bad about popping it in neutral to give the old left hand a rest?

Anyway, yes, following distance is a good point. Same for cars, too. And quite frankly, I'd be much happer just going the speed limit (65 mph) but people speed like crazy here in the bay area. If you want a safety buffer & don't want to get rear-ended or sideswiped by people jockeying for position, you have to go with the flow, and in the left-hand lane on 280 here, that means 85+ mph. (That's the lane furthest away from people coming on / getting off freeway, plus you only have to worry about lane-changers from one side instead of both - so therefore my sense is that it's the safest lane. But hey I'm a noob.)

Thx...
 

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Yeah but you are substantially more "front loaded" than most riders and can do it at a standstill just by leaning over the front of the bike! :)

..Tom
Maybe it's time for a tank bra...
 

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I have had to dart between cars due to the person behind me not paying attention. The split second of having to put the bike in gear could have gottem me seriously hurt.

I wont put the bike in neutral until there is a car or two behind me. Even then im still nervous and keep an eye on my mirrors.

Sent from Motorcycle.com Free App
 

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