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Discussion Starter #1
Greeting,

I have a cherry Wee with 8500mi and she has never missed a beat until yesterday. Occasionally I siphon the tank just to check for solids, separation, etc. And I've never to date discovered any sign of issues. Water, rust, etc included. So as I've done a few times before I siphoned it without any foreseen issues.

At the moment due to recent hurricane threats I find myself laden with 50 gallons of real gas purchased for generator usage. So the usual drill is to slowly consume it in the vehicles.

Nevertheless, I refilled the tank with 2.5 gals of fresh real gas figuring she might run even better. Nada, everything was lovely for the first 2 miles. At which point I attempted a low speed roll in second gear and noticed a loss of power. From there on out she repeated low to mid rpm power losses. Gunning the throttle at low rpm usually resulted in slow acceleration up to mid rpms. At which point she would snap back to around half normal power band from that point upward. She still idles but with a definite miss. So at a minimum I suspect the introduction of real gas has released existing deposits overwhelming the high pressure filter. Unfortunately I didn't expect this outcome by substituting real gas. As usually this results from just the opposite. With the alcohols in ethanol releasing varnishes from previous fuels. So it looks like the time has arrived to pull the tank and disassemble the pump module for inspection. Perhaps the tank itself had a buildup which popped off clogging the input screen? I immediately upon returning home siphoned out the real gas. And it was also still clean. Unfortunately at the moment I'm unsure as to exactly what has transpired. So has anyone else been so lucky to already have slid down this same rope?

Looks like new plugs and an air filter are also in order. As I don't want the plugs to freeze into the heads without neverseize.

I'm also overdue for new rubber. And I haven't researched the market in years. So are the Shinkos still as good as they were years ago?

Anyway I'm off to refill her with a few gallons of E10 and strong dose of Techron. It I'm lucky she may clear out. But pulling the tank for a pump inspection has been bumped to the top of the list.

Thanks to all and any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Ride safe and enjoy!

DD
 

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I'd siphon out the bottom of your e0 in a glass jar and take a look at it. My guess is that it is full of water. E10 eats the water, E0 floats on it. That is one of the main benefits of E10 and the reason you have to stick HEET (Alcohol) in E0 to take care of water issues.
 

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Or, how old is the E0 gas? If it's very old, the light hydrocarbons could have evaporated off, leaving a mixture (gasoline is a mixture of several hydrocarbons) which does not burn well at low rpms in your engine.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the replys. The original E10 was 5 weeks old and the E0 a few days old. I make it a habit to siphon the tank every few months regardless of fuel age. Just to do a close inspection. Plus 5 weeks is my max time allowance. To date she has never had any particulates or water in the tank. I employ a small fairly stiff hose which draws from down around the fuel pickup point.

Fwiw, I've now run her through 2 full stationary heating cycles with the latest fresh E10 Techron blend. And whatever the issue is seems to be slowly clearing out. The idle is improving and so is the throttle response. But there seems to be about a 20% remaining restriction of some sort. Like the pump pressure may be a bit low. Later today I'll take her for a spin to load her up to see what the real deal is. So stay tuned...

I see the oem high pressure filter and pressure regulator is around $230. Ouch! And that is minus the pump. Due to the popularity I'm surprised a aftermarket dosen't yet exist. So I guess a patent still exist or otherwise one would exist. And I bet the sales would be substantial. It is a darn shame they didn't incorporate an outboard filter. From what little data I've read it seems the oem filter is about 1/4 the size it needs to be.

So it looks like its out with the pump asap. As I don't want to cause any damage to it from a lack of fuel flow. I'll have to further investigate the external filter mod when the pump is disassembled. As I'm already leaning toward switching to the outboard filter instead of a new oem.

I'll order up the plugs, filter, and tires. Might as well do them all at the same time. Perhaps R&R the fork oil and seals as well. Which is also due. I did change the dust seals when I first got her. Which saved the oil seals. But since I'm pulling all the plastics. I might as well R&R the forks while access is easier.

DD
 

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Sounds like the E0 gas was not so good. It certainly didn't clean or dislodge any debris or at least no more than E10 would have. Interesting enough maybe get you few cans of HEET keep dosing until all the E0 is consumed.
 

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Unsure what you mean by real gas but I highly recommending stick to top tier fuel, not from a no name supplier unless absolutely needed. E10 is nothing special, would much rather grab non ethanol fuel; in our area this is only available in shell 91 octane and my wee is only treated to this the last couple of tanks before winter layup late November.
Do you add fuel stabilizer to any fuel stored for several months?
unsure why you would siphon and check if fuel was only several weeks old unless purchased from a questionable source. If this is destined for a generator, I would highly recommend fuel stabilizer and non ethanol fuel. I have 10L fuel set aside for my snowblower in early winter and this always has non ethanol gas with fuel stabilizer. At the end of the winter this gets dumped into one of my vehicles. The snowblower sits through the summer with a full tank of this fuel including the stabilizer and never an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well I repeated the same ride as before with the exact same results. She starts off running at 90+% until warm and the idle settles. Then she presents a slight mis which upsets the idle. Then approximately 2 miles down the road things take a turn for the worse. At worse she act as if she has lost a cylinder. And after slowly bogging up to mid-range rpm it suddenly snaps back in and bolts.

Little doubt remains that heat and expansion is involved. Which has shifted my attention to it perhaps being a coil related issue. Even something as simple as a wire connector that is loosing solid connection. So this evening I'm dismounting the coils to clean up the chassis attachment points and electrical connections.

I think I'll go ahead and order up a set of aftermarket coils. As I prefer to just swap them out one by one. Instead of attempting to troubleshooting intermittent units.

So we shall see, but I think I was barking up the wrong tree with the fuel relationship.

DD
 

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Did you add anything to take water out of gas? Apart from gas did you try a fuel injector cleaner?

It sure sounds like fuelling related as the cold cycle keeps the mix rich until it warms up and then leans it out. Your bike seems to stumble when it leans out so looks like fuel starvation.

Also if you experience a loss of power near the torque peak (where fuel demand is the highest) it also could mean the fuelling system isn't able to deliver enough fuel and you lose power. At higher revs the need for fuel drops and the system can start keeping up again and you get power again

The fact this all happened after you changed fuel (if I understood correctly) also points to something in the fuel casing issues. Water or crud are likely candidates. Water can be removed quickly, crud will tank several tanks of fuel and applications of fuel injector cleaner (or similar)


Don't start adding other variables like coils until you have eliminated fuelling issues.

..Tom
 

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Some where on this site is a thread about putting in an outside filter and bypassing the internal filter. you might want to look that thread up and read it.
 

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The OP seems to be knowledgeable and up on stuff. I thank the Motorcycle Gods that I am not and ride obliviously down the road. I've gotten 101000 trouble free miles on the '04 we now. Don't worry, be happy. How a bike with little more than first service miles can have such issues boggles the imagination.
Don't know about the fuel problems but Shinko's are still a good buy!
As far as the plugs freezing, from 23K to 80K I never checked the plugs. A mechanic friend checked the valves at the 80K mark and the plugs came out just fine.
I may be guilty of under thinking things.
When things like shocks and forks get pukey I do have them fixed when i get home. Rode back to LA from St Paul and the front end was kinda bouncy the whole while.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Nice! These really are fantastic bikes and worthy of highway touring. I've run for hours in excess of 100mph without drama. She developes a buzz above 115. But anything below that seems to not be a problem. High side winds on the highway do become a issue. But only in excess of 30mph. I made that run over Mobile Bay and at 70mph with 40mph gust. I could just barely maintain a single lane. Both lanes were required as a safety factor. Cagers are clueless to such drama so you are forced to steer clear. I even had a 700lb Harley roar by maintaining a straight line. But I still have no desire to own one. Lol.. I'd rather be 100+lbs lighter and more nimble anyday.

I just finished R&Ring the coils and polished out the mounting points. What I found was light rusting of the coil laminations. Along with a growth of white powdery corrosion on half of the mounting bolt threads. The electrical connections were tight and looked ok. So I polished everything out with the Dremel wire wheel. And reinstalled all with copper kote. Afterwards I started her up and the idle stumble seems to have vanished. I also removed the front sprocket cover for the first time. So as soon as I finish that major defunking. I'll slap her back together and go for the same test ride. As for the fuel system, to date I've never found any water which I admit is stunning. Plus no rust, dirt, etc during multiple siphoning inspections. And I never allow fuel to remain in it for over 5 weeks. I run Techron additive about 80% of the time. Riding season is all year and it is generally hotter than heck and super humid. Hence the rusting and corroding of exposed untreated metals.

With a little luck in a few hours she will be back 100%. I'll post whatever the result asap.

DD
 

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A fuel flow test is easy to do and could answer some questions if the problem persists.

A worn TPS is also sensitive to heat.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Back from the latest test run. The trip out was uneventful overall. But still lacking the original full bore grunt and acceleration. Right before reaching my destination I added another 2 gals of E10 to the remaining half gallon. Afterwards the return trip was pretty awful. With a return of power loss, surging, stalling, etc.

So it looks like the time has arrived to remove the pump assembly. I just read over various related threads and have a few questions. First being I read that 2 different pressure regulators exist. Are both of these located inside the high pressure filter housing? And are both of these regulators still in play after the internal bypass mod has been implemented? Unfortunately the diagrams of this filter head assemble shows little if any data in relation to the pressure regulation. I'm assuming that this drilled hole diverts fuel flow from the input side of the filter to the external output. Which then feeds out to the external serviceable filter. I also notice mention of hose clamps loosening causing leakage. I tend to like those worm types in general. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be to difficult to epoxy a spot on each screw to stop them from vibrating loose. So no biggie there. On the modern oem quick tank connect. Does it have a 5/16 barb output to accept high pressure rubber fuel line? And what rubber fuel line holds up to the heat load without dry rotting prematurely. Like lasting 15yrs or so. Years ago I reworked a carbed Triumph that cooked the new hose in 4 months. So if possible I'd like not to repeat that cluster again. And lastly what is the required micron level of filtration to keep the injectors happy?

Thanks,
DD
 

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I just enjoy reading all the details and steps you just did.

Definitely not the E/E10 issue.

If you're getting good fuel hose, you could get fuel submersible hose.

Gates 27093

Dayco 80161

Any other brand, it needs to meet SAE 30R10

Great idea on caulking for worm clamp. I'm not fan of them at all as I preferred hose clamp.

I would guess your fuel pump is going out.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the insight and data. I totally agree. The pump is the current prime suspect. Looks like the flow test is next up. So I've read a new assembly flows approx 12oz per key on session. And one that was suffering WOT bog put out .75oz. My issues are all over the rpm range and worse once warmed up. Sounds like I may have a pump that is failing after warming up. If it were the filter I would think it would clog and remain clogged. Especially being so small to begin with. Unless it is the rail pressure regulation bypassing and sagging for some reason. So the flow test may be inconclusive but we shall see. Whatever it is I've gotta get back rolling as the main riding season has arrived.

DD
 

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Oddly enough my riding buddy had running issues on his DRZ400 when he tried ethanol free gas. He works at a dealer and a mechanic told him that some bikes now just aren't "happy" with it.

Sounds crazy to me. I use it when bikes to be sitting and always in anything vintage.
No issues and better fuel range as a bonus.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for all the replys. All good info and much needed. Ordered a pump, screen, o-rings this morning. Flow test is up next. Then off with the tank and I'll run the appropriate TPS testing. Filter should be here in the next week. Currently the plan is to install the pump, screen, o-rings. And backwash the filter untill clean and see what washes out. I'll have to find and download the service manual. Which I suspect is considerably larger than the past Clymers manuals.

Stay safe and enjoy the ride.
DD
 

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Nice! These really are fantastic bikes and worthy of highway touring. I've run for hours in excess of 100mph without drama. She developes a buzz above 115. But anything below that seems to not be a problem. High side winds on the highway do become a issue. But only in excess of 30mph. I made that run over Mobile Bay and at 70mph with 40mph gust. I could just barely maintain a single lane. Both lanes were required as a safety factor. Cagers are clueless to such drama so you are forced to steer clear. I even had a 700lb Harley roar by maintaining a straight line. But I still have no desire to own one. Lol.. I'd rather be 100+lbs lighter and more nimble anyday.

I just finished R&Ring the coils and polished out the mounting points. What I found was light rusting of the coil laminations. Along with a growth of white powdery corrosion on half of the mounting bolt threads. The electrical connections were tight and looked ok. So I polished everything out with the Dremel wire wheel. And reinstalled all with copper kote. Afterwards I started her up and the idle stumble seems to have vanished. I also removed the front sprocket cover for the first time. So as soon as I finish that major defunking. I'll slap her back together and go for the same test ride. As for the fuel system, to date I've never found any water which I admit is stunning. Plus no rust, dirt, etc during multiple siphoning inspections. And I never allow fuel to remain in it for over 5 weeks. I run Techron additive about 80% of the time. Riding season is all year and it is generally hotter than heck and super humid. Hence the rusting and corroding of exposed untreated metals.

With a little luck in a few hours she will be back 100%. I'll post whatever the result asap.

DD
If your bike does not already have a fork brace this is a very worthy and inexpensive addition. Really plants the bike in crosswinds, when passing trucks etc. Rick is also active on this forum.
 
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