Countersteer What?? - Page 3 - Stromtrooper Forum : Suzuki V-Strom Motorcycle Forums
Riding Proficiency Tips and suggestions for improving the rider's safety skills and riding techniques

 29Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 01:40 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Letsgo2up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Near Vancouver Wa
Posts: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by fig View Post
If leaning doesnít steer a bike then how do you steer when riding with no hands?
I do countersteer when riding casually through turns but if Iím riding aggressively Iím leaning.
Countersteering causes the bike to lean. Countersteering obviously isn't the only way to lean a motorcycle. It is the easiest way as it only requires a small movement of the handlebar.
It's important to practice the "press right to go right" until it is instinctive. When confronted with an emergency need to swerve or steer, you don't want to revert to turning the bars right to go right like you would on a tricycle or quad.

'06 DL 1000
'06 Bonneville T100
'01 Honda VTR1000
'09 Kawasaki KLX250
'07 Kawasaki KLR650
Letsgo2up is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 05:05 PM
Super Moderator
 
V-Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Port Perry, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,878
The act of leaning the bike causes the front wheel to counter-steer because of gyro. Precession reaction of the wheel. The steering bearing allows the front wheel assembly to move and the trail of the bike stabilizes it until the forces are in balance.

I routinely ride with hands off the bars and steer with over exaggerated weight shifts. It fascinates me how stable the bike naturally is, especially in major crosswinds.

..Tom

My Opinion:
Vee or V= DL1000 before 2014
Vee2 or V2 = DL1000 2015 to 2019
Vee3 or V3 = DL1050 2020 to?

My Stroms:
2006 DL650: 202,000 km 125,500 miles, Sold
2012 DL650 139,500+ km, 86,700+ miles. Sold
2015 DL1000 New July 2015 205,000+ km, 127,000+ miles.

This can help preventing from cars pulling out in front of you (SMIDSY)
SMIDSY detailed report.



Last edited by V-Tom; 08-02-2019 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Used the wrong term earlier and corrected it.
V-Tom is offline  
post #23 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 08:13 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Spec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gateway to Death Valley
Posts: 3,515
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjosephtoo View Post
Countersteering isn't the only way to steer a bike. It is one way, and perhaps the best way, but it is not the only way. Anybody who ever stands up on the pegs can attest that weight movement from side to side results in incredibly quick direction changes. In most cases you're not even in a position to "countersteer" because your hands are at the top of the bars and cannot "push" or "pull" the bars. But if you are dodging big rocks, simply shifting your weight from one peg to the other results in a far quicker avoidance maneuver...

You confuse swerving with steering.

I'm a long time dirt bike rider and I understand very well about peg weighting. Yea you can weave around objects but to actually make a turn your hands have to give the bars input.

Same on the street. You have to to overcome the gyro effect of the wheels. At speed there is a lot of force keeping the bike straight. Turning the front wheel opposite of the turn creates torque induced gyroscopic precession which leans the gyros/wheels into the turn.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13

Last edited by Spec; 08-02-2019 at 08:19 PM.
Spec is online now  
 
post #24 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 09:36 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Letsgo2up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Near Vancouver Wa
Posts: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec View Post
You confuse swerving with steering. No, they are the same.

I'm a long time dirt bike rider and I understand very well about peg weighting. Yea you can weave around objects but to actually make a turn your hands have to give the bars input.

Same on the street. You have to to overcome the gyro effect of the wheels. At speed there is a lot of force keeping the bike straight. Turning the front wheel opposite of the turn creates torque induced gyroscopic precession which leans the gyros/wheels into the turn.
It has more to do with rake and trail than gyro torque precession.
MrF likes this.

'06 DL 1000
'06 Bonneville T100
'01 Honda VTR1000
'09 Kawasaki KLX250
'07 Kawasaki KLR650
Letsgo2up is offline  
post #25 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 09:57 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: East West Virginia
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec View Post
You confuse swerving with steering.

I'm a long time dirt bike rider and I understand very well about peg weighting. Yea you can weave around objects but to actually make a turn your hands have to give the bars input.

Same on the street. You have to to overcome the gyro effect of the wheels. At speed there is a lot of force keeping the bike straight. Turning the front wheel opposite of the turn creates torque induced gyroscopic precession which leans the gyros/wheels into the turn.
No, I'm not confusing anything. Swerving and turning are no different. One is simply quicker than the other. I can ride my motorcycle down the curvy 55 mph paved road with no hands, and steer it through curve after curve by simply shifting my weight from peg to peg, or moving my body from one side of the bike to the other. Next time you're on a paved highway you can prove it to yourself. You can quite easily negotiate turns with no hands on the bars relying solely on weight transfer. Try it first by moving the bike from one side of your lane to the other. Back and forth. Eventually you'll find that weight transfer alone can negotiate turns. What turns the bike is the rounded profile of your tires, like a cone rolling naturally turns to one side (the pointy side). Put weight on that side and the bike leans over and turns with no handlebar input whatsoever. Countersteering is more direct in getting the bike to lean, but weight alone will do it too, just a little bit slower.
tjosephtoo is offline  
post #26 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 10:50 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Spec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gateway to Death Valley
Posts: 3,515
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjosephtoo View Post
No, I'm not confusing anything. Swerving and turning are no different. One is simply quicker than the other. I can ride my motorcycle down the curvy 55 mph paved road with no hands, and steer it through curve after curve by simply shifting my weight from peg to peg, or moving my body from one side of the bike to the other. Next time you're on a paved highway you can prove it to yourself. You can quite easily negotiate turns with no hands on the bars relying solely on weight transfer. Try it first by moving the bike from one side of your lane to the other. Back and forth. Eventually you'll find that weight transfer alone can negotiate turns. What turns the bike is the rounded profile of your tires, like a cone rolling naturally turns to one side (the pointy side). Put weight on that side and the bike leans over and turns with no handlebar input whatsoever. Countersteering is more direct in getting the bike to lean, but weight alone will do it too, just a little bit slower.
Keith Code has pretty well debunked your theory.

No B. S. Machine

"Now, in the 21st century, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double-barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 x 800 feet. It was like turning an oil tanker ship and starting at noon to be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasnít smooth and it wasnít very effective."
V-Strom Ry 2 and scab like this.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13
Spec is online now  
post #27 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 10:53 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
NVDucati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Northern Calif
Posts: 929
I think I've read the whole thread. I don't think I've seen mention of rake and trail. (apologies if I missed it)
A hyper-scientific explanation isn't always the most explanatory. But let's agree that we are not riding two unicycles bolted together. On a unicycle front end, the center of the tire's contact patch is directly under (inline with) the pivot axis. It has zero rake, zero trail, positive or negative.

The good news we have both. Otherwise we would be limited to low single digit speed. One good way to visualize this and have the time and safety to mind wrap it it is this;

With your bike on its side stand, line the front wheel up straight with the rear wheel. Draw an outline of the kickstand pad on the floor with chalk. Now, standing beside the bike, slowly turn the handlebar all the way to the right side. Then the same to the left. You will see the kickstand pad move across the floor and the lean angle of the bike rise and fall.

After a few repetitions it become more and more clear that it is the geometry of the frame neck and the triple tree offset that we are manipulating and it makes sense. [or you could buy, beg or borrow a radical chopper with negative trail]
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Rake v Trail.jpeg (20.6 KB, 5 views)
MrF likes this.

Member: AMA
Current Rides: '14 DL1000 ADV, '06 SV650N, '93 900CBRR, '74 Ducati 750GT ['02 BMW K1200rs SOLD Aug '17]
NVDucati is offline  
post #28 of 39 Old 08-02-2019, 11:16 PM
Stromthusiast!
 
Spec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Gateway to Death Valley
Posts: 3,515
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letsgo2up View Post
It has more to do with rake and trail than gyro torque precession.

No rake has to do with straight line stability and trail has to do with steering effort.

To turn the bike at speed the wheel just like a gyro has to have lateral force applied opposite of the intended turn.

There's an easy way to demonstrate precession. Hold a spinning bicycle wheel out in front of you and push forward on one side of the axle. Push right and wheel tilts to right. It's really hard to turn the wheel without the torque input just like on a motorcycle.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13

Last edited by Spec; 08-02-2019 at 11:49 PM.
Spec is online now  
post #29 of 39 Old 08-03-2019, 08:54 AM
Stromthusiast!
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: East West Virginia
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec View Post
Keith Code has pretty well debunked your theory.

No B. S. Machine

"Now, in the 21st century, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double-barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 x 800 feet. It was like turning an oil tanker ship and starting at noon to be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasnít smooth and it wasnít very effective."
Well, I guess Keith never saw me ride. But I invite you to try it yourself, and you can prove it to yourself. Put your throttle lock on at 55 mph. Take your hands off the handlebars (or leave your fingers barely touching so you can grab the bar quickly). Move your ass from the center of the seat to the side. Your bike will turn to the side where there is more weight. I will try to get my gopro hooked up in the next few days and video it for you. No, you can't negotiate sharp turns that way. But you sure can steer through turns marked for 45 mph and above.
tjosephtoo is offline  
post #30 of 39 Old 08-03-2019, 10:46 AM
Stromthusiast!
 
NVDucati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Northern Calif
Posts: 929
Keith Code has pretty well debunked your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjosephtoo View Post
Well, I guess Keith never saw me ride. But I invite you to try it yourself, and you can prove it to yourself. Put your throttle lock on at 55 mph. Take your hands off the handlebars (or leave your fingers barely touching so you can grab the bar quickly). Move your ass from the center of the seat to the side. Your bike will turn to the side where there is more weight. I will try to get my gopro hooked up in the next few days and video it for you. No, you can't negotiate sharp turns that way. But you sure can steer through turns marked for 45 mph and above.
Actually, all three of you are right.

Leaning causes "counter steer", counter steering causes lean.

It is baked into the geometry. The exercise I outlined above has no wheels spinning and no body weight shifting. At the end of the day, we really don't need to understand it.
Spec likes this.

Member: AMA
Current Rides: '14 DL1000 ADV, '06 SV650N, '93 900CBRR, '74 Ducati 750GT ['02 BMW K1200rs SOLD Aug '17]
NVDucati is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Stromtrooper Forum : Suzuki V-Strom Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome