IDLE HAMMER - Source found and FIXED - Stromtrooper Forum : Suzuki V-Strom Motorcycle Forums
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  #1  
Old 08-13-2012, 12:34 PM
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Default IDLE HAMMER - Source found and FIXED

While looking for the source and cure for the idle hammer in my SV, I came across the problems in the clutch basket and came up with the re-engineered fix for the clutch chudder.
Well I got back to the Idle Hammer source and solution problem. Have run prototypes and proved exactly what it is. Is anyone sufficiently hacked of with their IH noise to fit the fix?

Svman - Sharealike most other places

Last edited by svman; 08-13-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2012, 12:43 PM
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How about revealing what causes the noise?
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  #3  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:01 PM
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Default The cause of the Idle Hammer

The IH noise and hammer felt through the bike is because the crank hops (lifts) up and down in the drive side (right of the engine) main bearings oil clearance.

There are a few contributory factors which when they occur at the same time and while ever the engine is not loaded (such as when at idle) create the lift.

Heavy flywheel being pulled downwards by gravity at the opposite end tends to lift the drive side journal.

Two pistons and rods mid-way between the bearings trying their best to make the crank journals rise and fall.

Scissor gear adjacent to the drive side main pushes the crank fowards and therefore upwards so the journal lifts.

Clutch with significant rotational inertia (acting as second engine flywheel) trying to lift the drive side main as it transfers inertia back into the crank via the primary drive gears.

Less prone to happen and quieter when engine is cold. Less expansion of the bearing which is in an aluminuim housing. Oil thicker so damps the knock.

More prone to happen and makes a very heavy and regular knock when engine crank cases and oil are hot through. Fully expanded bearing housing. Oil thinned due to heat so far less damping.

You could say it's just down to the layout of the engine. Perhaps if we had lighter flywheels, heavier cranks, less main bearing oil clearance, different design of bearing, a lighter and smaller diameter clutch (less inertia), deeper clutch oil bath or better oil cooling then the IH would never occur. Wait a minute! These are all the things Suzuki changed between TLS/TLR when they created SV and DL. Or what they have tweaked in SV and/or DL since their birth in 2002 and 2003. TLS/TLR had other problems but no reports of IH.

Try TBS (vacuum), new plugs, TPS, Valve check, different oil brands, different oil grades, Fuel Map tweaks, check the big nut on the crank and the rest. If you still have the IH in your SV or DL after this lot then your only way to cure it before now was to strip the engine and gamble that new mains would have some impact (or sell it in winter). Which is exactly what Suzuki were doing here in the UK to pacify owners until as late as 2006.

Something that works at just the right frequency to keep the "hop" in check at idle is required. It must also allow the crank journals to build and run on their wedge of oil in the mains when the engine is loaded.

Like the clutch basket re-engineering I kicked off some years ago, this IH solution has taken plenty or investigation, experimenting and testing over two years to get something fit to make available. Now wondering if it's going to be worth my time to tool up for low volume production to help those owners who until now just had to put up with the IH.

Last edited by svman; 08-13-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:28 PM
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Never knew this was an issue other than a bit of noise? Some do it and some don't so how can your theory be 100% correct? Mine didnt do it by the way, of course I typically ran 20W50 oil in mine year around.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:25 PM
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How and/or does the IH differ from what I like to call the "clutch chatter", the noise heard at idle on both the 1000 and 650 that dissapears when the clutch lever is depressed? Or is this a completely different animal?
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B View Post
Never knew this was an issue other than a bit of noise? Some do it and some don't so how can your theory be 100% correct? Mine didnt do it by the way, of course I typically ran 20W50 oil in mine year around.
The DL 1000 was less affected than the SV. DL had slightly lighter clutch and flywheel. There are DL1000 owners with the IH and keen to lose it.
This is not a theory. Like my clutch basket re-engineering development to cure the chudder, I experimented and prototyped it for years in my spare time to prove it beyond doubt. That kind of thing used to be my job. I have hard evidence to back up every comment I make. My reputation is at stake here.

The loundness and severity varies from bike to bike due to manufacturing tolerances which then affects how the bearings "bed in". Suzuki top tech guy told me this. He was a mechanic to Barry Sheene on the Suzuki team many years ago. Called me one evening and we talked for over an hour and a half.

Heavier oil will improve or cure mild cases. 20W60 went some way to help my second bike but far from a cure and it was 80 USD a gallon. First bike just hammered straight after the first oil change and nothing would stop it. Other than Suzuki bought it back from me within three months and added something to cover my trouble. At the time they said other bikes released were cured and mine was an assembly line rogue. Has since proved to be less than the truth.

2005 and on bikes were fitted with revised bearing shells and reduced main bearing oil clerarance at the factory. Incidence and severity of IH is less. Engine layout remains the same. SV received a slightly lightened flywheel.

Happy to show the hard evidence where it exists.

Svman aka Sharealike other places
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:58 AM
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Does this affect both the 650m and 1000?
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trapperdog View Post
How and/or does the IH differ from what I like to call the "clutch chatter", the noise heard at idle on both the 1000 and 650 that dissapears when the clutch lever is depressed? Or is this a completely different animal?
The very best of questions.

The IH and Clutch Chatter at idle in the 1000 engines are easily mistaken for each other. I also thought they were one and the same when I set out on these investigations.

The sound and nature of the IH changes when you pull the clutch lever in. This disengages about 2kg of clutch hub and steel clutch plates which represents a significant rotational inertia that was acting on the crank via the primary drive gears.

I can't comment with any authority on the 650 engine because I never owned one, had one open or rode them great distance in the right IH enducing conditions.

My clutch basket development work taught me that much of the noise owners blame on the clutch comes from the gearbox input shaft. Just pull the lever in a hair (not to the bar) and this is often enough to silence much of what is blamed as clutch chatter. The gearbox still runs when the bike is in neutral and the lever released. In fact it continues to run long after the lever is pulled to the bar. Sometimes its only by selecting a gear that it ever stops. Clunk you might often hear when selecting gear? Gearbox noise at idle is always a problem in engines. In our case there are six gears still in mesh (constant mesh gearbox) and at least two large ball bearings running. All these individual componets without any load on them will make plenty of noise. Particularly on the older the bike because the running clerarance they all need will only increase with miles. Pulling the lever in a hair or right to the bar puts a heavy end load on the gearbox input shaft bearings. This silences them and also serves to damp other rattling activity ammongst the gears on the same shaft. Try it.

IH and the Clutch Chatter/gearbox noise are only linked in that they are on neighbouring shafts linked by the primary drive gears. Just how much of the clutch inertia you allow into play to affect the crank has a direct effect on the severity of IH, or tendancy to try and IH.

My own engine has the IH with the clutch to the bar when its hot. Means I can't escape IH at rest other than selecting gear and letting the clutch drag a little (switching off not a good option). Not good practice and is why the IH fix in addition to the clutch basket modifications became so crucial to the further enjoyment of my bike.

Svman aka Sharelike other places.

Last edited by svman; 08-14-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p38arover View Post
Does this affect both the 650m and 1000?
Another very good question.

I can't comment with any authority on the 650 engine because I never owned one or had one open. Some I have ridden and many I pulled up alongside at the lights exhibit the characteristics of the IH. Softer than experienced in the 1000 but I hear it over the sound of my own 1000 engine when at a halt. The same fundamental engine layout but the 650 has significantly smaller and lighter major components. Probably never becomes a problem.

I could develop a fix for the 650 engine based on the 1000 fix if there was demand.

Svman aka sharealike other places
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:44 AM
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Here are some threads about a 650 noise. Maybe the descriptions contained therein would provide a clue.

http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl650-20...om-owners.html
http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl650-20...-warm-07s.html
http://www.stromtrooper.com/dl650-20...ners-only.html
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Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A is just getting started.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 DL1000s. Vee2=2014+ DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 DL650s. Glee = 2012+ DL650s
See http://www.stromtrooper.com/general-...nicknames.html

Please vote in the poll on what Strom(s) you have at http://www.stromtrooper.com/informat...-you-have.html
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