starter spins, wont engage

[michaelv]

dl650, starter spins like crazy, won't engage. I am charging battery with a tender, hope it comes to life in the a.m., but I fear the worst. Any ideas or comments?

Thanks, in advance!

[2mstone]

What kind of oil are you using? If by chance you have a non-motorcycle oil I would change it and see how it behaves with a motorcycle oil.

[michaelv]

What kind of oil are you using? If by chance you have a non-motorcycle oil I would change it and see how it behaves with a motorcycle oil.

Dealer maintained, 15k miles, no abused. I fear it is the starter, perhaps the gear thingie is not engaging the flywheel? I have no shop manual, so I know not how it works, but when I hit the start switch it just goes zzzzzzzzzzzing.

Thanks.

[10guy]

Oil would have nothing to do with it, and I'm sorry to say the battery won't either. Not having any experience with these bikes is an issue but even so I'd guess it is the starter clutch not engaging. If you have your dealer do routine maintenance then this wouldn't be a good first job for you to start on.

[rcacs]

If your starter spins, but doesnt engage its the starter clutch. Usually an extremely reliable device. It is a one way bearing type clutch.

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/46/Year/2005/ModelID/6473/Model/DL650_V-STROM/GroupID/270465/Group/STARTER_CLUTCH

Cheers

[Heavy]

I'm intrigued. What's the theory behind this suggestion?:sifone:

What kind of oil are you using? If by chance you have a non-motorcycle oil I would change it and see how it behaves with a motorcycle oil.

[rcacs]

As you know Heavy, m/c oil talks tough and has tattoos

Cheers!

[janiceclanfield]

As you know Heavy, m/c oil talks tough and has tattoos

Cheers!

And it's made from Dolphin pineal glands. Betcha didn't know that.

It's a well kept Japanese secret.



Harleys use dung oil though...

[Heavy]

That I knew. I'm trying to understand how the oil has warped his weeble rods, causing the primary inertial rack to disconnect so the starter won't engage. I'd be willing to bet the guy is trying to start the bike while its pointed East. We all know that's a real no-no.

As you know Heavy, m/c oil talks tough and has tattoos

Cheers!

[2mstone]

I'm intrigued. What's the theory behind this suggestion?:sifone:

Personal experience. Had a wing that had the same symptoms, called a wrench and he gave me the same advice (with a long explanation). I changed the oil and the starter worked great.

Also, reading on this type of forum, do a simple search.

So yes, oil could have a lot to do with the problem.

[Heavy]

I'm really interested in the "long explanation" Personally, I'm skeptical.

[2mstone]

I'm really interested in the "long explanation" Personally, I'm skeptical.

Your choice.

[Dorzok]

If your starter spins, but doesnt engage its the starter clutch. Usually an extremely reliable device. It is a one way bearing type clutch.

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/2/Make/Suzuki/YearID/46/Year/2005/ModelID/6473/Model/DL650_V-STROM/GroupID/270465/Group/STARTER_CLUTCH

Cheers

so, these guys don't have a good old fashioned Bendix gear?

[10guy]

Personal experience. Had a wing that had the same symptoms, called a wrench and he gave me the same advice (with a long explanation). I changed the oil and the starter worked great.

Also, reading on this type of forum, do a simple search.

So yes, oil could have a lot to do with the problem.

I don't see how oil type/weight change/stop the actuation of the starter clutch.

While the clutches tend to be very durable once in a while one will fail, it is not unheard of.

[Dorzok]

That I knew. I'm trying to understand how the oil has warped his weeble rods, causing the primary inertial rack to disconnect so the starter won't engage. I'd be willing to bet the guy is trying to start the bike while its pointed East. We all know that's a real no-no.

Din't you know? changing oils is the cure all. had that surging issue i thought adding a dual plug would fix it (heard it some place on here) so i investigated that route but was WAY to complicated. anyway, i changed the oils and no more surge. Oh yeah it fixed my loose dirty chain and my low idle. come to think of it mt seat is more comfortable since the oil change too.

[Heavy]

Okay, I decided to do a little research about this and 2mstone's suggestion regarding oil was, kind of, pertinent. Motorcycle vs automotive oil is not the issue. Apparently, the starter clutch on a Goldwing resides inside the engine case, and is bathed in engine oil. Having too heavy an oil or not changing it frequently enough can cause the starter clutch to bind and not engage. I couldn't find any mention of this pertaining to V-Stroms but it is known with the Goldwings.

"It's rare for the starter clutch to actually fail, normally they get gummed up and new oil and some running frees them up pretty well. You can also add Marvel Mystery Oil to the crankcase oil when refilling the engine, that can help free up the rollers."

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/view_post.php?post_id=456927

"GL1100 & GL1200 Starter Motor Spinning Problem. Lots of people have e-mailed me to say that when cold, their GL1100 starter motor spins fine but will not turn the engine over. From personal experience I have found that using 20-50W oil is a major cause of this problem, especially in cold weather. Changing to a lighter oil such as 10-40W usually fixes this problem."

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Motorcycle-Repair-837/2008/3/Motorcycle-repair-1.htm

"http://site1.wikianswers.com/templates/images/qbar_q.gif?v=39814 Your honda goldwing 1981 Gl 1100 starter cranks makes a whining noise motor does not turn over can be push started shifts fine once warm the engine turns over ocassionaly starter and solenoid is new.?

http://site1.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/abar_a.gif?v=39814 Usually this is the starter clutch not engaging. Caused by using too heavy a grade of oil or going too long between changes. Try an oil change. The problem is usually only there on a cold engine. "

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Your_honda_goldwing_1981_Gl_1100_starter_cranks_ma kes_a_whining_noise_motor_does_not_turn_over_can_b e_push_started_shifts_fine_once_warm_the_engine_tu rns_over_ocassionaly_starter_and_solenoid_is_new.


I then went to the V-Strom shop manual and found that the starter clutch also resides inside the engine cases, at least on the 1000 anyway. The starter itself is bolted to the exterior of the motor but the starter clutch is inside.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/jjchonga/starter.jpg

So, we haven't heard back from the originator of this thread to see if he/she is still having the problem but, it could make sense to ask when he/she last changed their oil and what weight oil they're using.

2mstone, you were close with the oil suggestion, although mcycle vs auto wasn't it. It does go to show that we can't immediately apply our knowledge of automotive systems to motorcycle applications.




Personal experience. Had a wing that had the same symptoms, called a wrench and he gave me the same advice (with a long explanation). I changed the oil and the starter worked great.

Also, reading on this type of forum, do a simple search.

So yes, oil could have a lot to do with the problem.

[rcacs]

Nice bit of research there Heavy. Showing your soft intellectual side I see.

:D

Cheers.

[Heavy]

Sure is easier to just be an asshole though. ;)

Nice bit of research there Heavy. Showing your soft intellectual side I see.

:D

Cheers.

[sturgeon]

Sure is easier to just be an asshole though. ;)

Some guys will do anything to avoid installing new tires!

[janiceclanfield]

My Goldwing starter refused to engage as well. Wasn't oil though.

There are 3 small metal cylinders that have to be free to engage the clutch, and they're subject to getting magnetized over time. Since everything is internal, I had to take the engine out of the bike, (what fun!) unzip the case and reinstall new rollers and the little springs that keep them in place.

Was an interesting problem and I learned how to remove a Goldwing engine in the process.

I really, really miss having a garage. This condo we're in is really nice, but the lack of a garage sucks.

Oh well, at least I don't have to shovel snow...

And we can take all our female friends into the sauna with us!!!! :cool::cool::cool:

[michaelv]

[QUOTE=Heavy;366032]Okay, I decided to do a little research about this and 2mstone's suggestion regarding oil was, kind of, pertinent....
<snip>

Thanks to all! The response to my enquiry was overwhelming! I will investigate the R&R and oil change method first, before I push it to the stealer. Who would've guess it could be the oil?

I use the factory recommended oil/weight. I have only put 1K miles on since the oil was changed by the stealer, last June.

It has been ccccold here in AZ, of late, so I may try a heat gun first. I will get back into it this weekend, and will post feedback after.

Thanks again!

Forums ROCK!

You all ROCK!

[Mortaine]

If your oil change or heat gun does not work remove the starter and rotate the sprag ( one way clutch) counter clock wise by hand then rotate it clock wise to see if it will lock up. If you cannot get it to lock up you will have to remove it to see why. HEAVY or dirty oil are possible causes but very likely the sprag is failing causing the rollers to jam. Being a firm believer in Murphys law I would change it they do not usually stick and while you may get it working for now it usually will fail again a long way from your tools and home.:sifone:
How come that damn duck did not know about this??????????:confused:

[Heavy]

Mort, it appears that the starter and starter clutch are separate and you would have to split the case to remove the clutch. See, in my earlier picture of the starter, it only has a splined output shaft. You slide the shaft into the clutch, which is inside the cases, when you bolt on the starter. Am I wrong?

[henerythe8th]

The starter engages the teeth on one of the internal parts.
What Mort is saying is -- remove the starter, turn the internal -to be engaged with' part with a tool and see if it functions as it should.

I used to have a T-bird with a bad spot on the flywheel. Had to get under it and rotate the engine one flywheel tooth with a specialty tool (bent screwdriver) to get starter to engage. AW for the days of youth...

.

[rcacs]

That is a somewhat different clutch Janet. The type you speak of Suzuki used up to about 1974 on several models (GT's). It was not a reliable set up, often failing to release upon start up or not fully grabbing while cranking.

The Strom (and pretty much every UJM) uses a one-way sprague bearing, which looks like a normal caged roller bearing, but will only spin in one direction. Very very reliable.

Cheers!




My Goldwing starter refused to engage as well. Wasn't oil though.

There are 3 small metal cylinders that have to be free to engage the clutch, and they're subject to getting magnetized over time. Since everything is internal, I had to take the engine out of the bike, (what fun!) unzip the case and reinstall new rollers and the little springs that keep them in place.

Was an interesting problem and I learned how to remove a Goldwing engine in the process.

I really, really miss having a garage. This condo we're in is really nice, but the lack of a garage sucks.

Oh well, at least I don't have to shovel snow...

And we can take all our female friends into the sauna with us!!!! :cool::cool::cool:

[Mortaine]

Mort, it appears that the starter and starter clutch are separate and you would have to split the case to remove the clutch. See, in my earlier picture of the starter, it only has a splined output shaft. You slide the shaft into the clutch, which is inside the cases, when you bolt on the starter. Am I wrong?

Starter is splined to a reduction gear that turns the driven gear that is part of the sprag should be able to gain access by removing the rotor thats how the 1k is designed but I have never taken one out of a 650.:confused:

[XLonDL650]

The starter engages the teeth on one of the internal parts.
What Mort is saying is -- remove the starter, turn the internal -to be engaged with' part with a tool and see if it functions as it should.

I used to have a T-bird with a bad spot on the flywheel. Had to get under it and rotate the engine one flywheel tooth with a specialty tool (bent screwdriver) to get starter to engage. AW for the days of youth...

.


In order to diagnose starter malfunction in an automobile engine, we used to remove the starter, attach ground from a 12V battery charger to the negative wire terminal on the starter, and then momentarily touch the positive wire terminal of the starter with positive battery clamp of the charger see if the starter gear would thrust forward and begin to rotate. If it did, the starter would be O.K., this being was how the starter gear would mate into the flywheel to turn the engine over.

Wonder if you could do something similiar on the Strom ?

[chris swann]

ive changed one on another bike , its like a roller bearing but the rollers are egg shaped , once they wear out they just slip and wont grab hard enough too turn the motor over .

[rcacs]

In order to diagnose starter malfunction in an automobile engine, we used to remove the starter, attach ground from a 12V battery charger to the negative wire terminal on the starter, and then momentarily touch the positive wire terminal of the starter with positive battery clamp of the charger see if the starter gear would thrust forward and begin to rotate. If it did, the starter would be O.K., this being was how the starter gear would mate into the flywheel to turn the engine over.

Wonder if you could do something similiar on the Strom ?

Auto's use a bendix type starter drive, I can not think of one single UJM that does or ever has (although Im sure at some point a model or two might have used it).

Cheers

[michaelv]

[QUOTE=michaelv;364459]dl650, starter spins like crazy, won't engage. I am charging battery with a tender, hope it comes to life in the a.m., but I fear the worst.

<snip>
I removed the starter and stuck my pinky in the hole. The big gear moved both ways, forward more freely than backward. Shoot! I then pulled the cover off the generator side, it was easy enuf; a drip pan to catch the erl, then about 12 small hex-head bolts and off she came! I was shocked to note that the large bolt that holds the generator rotor and starter driven gear to the hub had backed almost all the way out!

I reinstalled the starter, the starter driven gear, and the gen rotor. I snugged the bolt up and gave her a spin. Viola'! She spun correctly! Woo hoo!

The only problem is the bolt will back out, because of torque. The service manual states that one should use the special tool, called a rotor-holder, then torque the bolt to 87 ft/lbs.

I am going to order then gen-cover gasket tomorrow as well as the starter o-ring, then reinstall this weekend.

I was thinking of putting the bike in gear, jamming a 2x4 in the back wheel, and having at it with the torque wrench.

This makes me wonder, though. If this bolt CAN back out, why is there no safety on it? Why no lock-tite?

At any rate, the gen-cover has an inspection cover with an allen head. I guess this means you should check it periodically?

Your thoughts on my approach?

Thanks for all your feedback!