LED's are exhausting!

[Bisbonian]

I swear that I've seen someone on here who installed LED's in the end of the exhaust on a Vee. I've had no luck finding the thread again so I decided to give it a try myself because it looked pretty cool.

I've never wired up individual LED's before so I had to do a little research before I went at it. I wanted this to be as simple (and cheap) as possible so I decided to purchase LED's from www.superbrightleds.com and I got a couple of 12 volt regulators from Radio Shack.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds002.jpg

I used the RL5-R5015 LED because it ran off 2 volts and I needed 6 of them per side. Since I was using the 12v regulator I wouldn't need any extra resistors or anything so all I had to do was wire them in series and each LED would get 2 volts, perfect! These LED's cost less than 30 cents each, a big difference from the $3 at Radio Shack.

I determined the best place to put the LED's would be on the flat surface around the tailpipe "stinger". I decided to line them up with the bolts in the muffler end and drilled my holes. 1/4" hole was all that was needed for the LED mounts.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds003.jpg

I then slid the mounts in that will hold the LED's.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds004.jpg

Once I had the spacing I realized that I wouldn't need any extra wire in between the LED's. All I did was solder them together, positive to negative, all the way around. I decided it would be easier to solder them all together then insert them into the holders.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds006.jpg

[Bisbonian]

Hit the submit button by mistake so I'll continue.

I realized that I needed a hole to run the wires through so I drilled a hole into the inside of the heatshield, you can see it if you look hard.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds005.jpg

Then I inserted the LED's into their little brackets and threaded the wires into the hole I had just drilled. Unfortunately my measuring wasn't that great and I had to take it back apart once and add some wire in between a couple of the LED's, that'll teach me not to really measure.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds007.jpg

Then all that was left to do was mount the heat shield back on the motorcycle, I tested the whole setup first to make sure I didn't screw it up. Doesn't look too bad so far.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds008.jpg

The next side went a bit quicker since I'd already done it once and didn't make the same mistakes. Here's how it looks with one side lit up.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds009.jpg

The LED's give a little different brightness depending upon what angle you look at them. This is with 11:00 am Arizona sun directly on them, I think they're pretty obvious for that.

I wasn't sure how I was going to wire them. My initial thought was to have them come on with the brake lights. I ended up taking a neighborhood poll and prevailing opinion was to have them come on all the time. I wired them into my front running lights (I have running lights in my front turn signals) and they seem to work okay. You don't get any pictures of the spaghetti under my seat as I have to tidy it up a little.

All told, this took me a couple of hours and less than $30 total. I think it looks pretty cool.

[WeThereYet]

All told, this took me a couple of hours and less than $30 total. I think it looks pretty cool.

Bonus is, it would only cost a Wee guy $15.00.

[MightyShep]

Bonus is, it would only cost a Wee guy $15.00.
They wouldn't spend that much
:D

[janiceclanfield]

But then the Wee could only turn in one direction!

[msi1259]

Looks neat!

Minor suggestion:
The voltage regulators you are using (LM7812) have a dropout voltage rating of 2 volts (it drops 2 volts from the input terminal to the output terminal) - so you are actually only getting 12 volts when the input is over 14 volts. (the LEDs likely brighten up when the engine is rev'd?).
"LED ratings are specified by current, not voltage"
Therefore, a better choice when stacking LEDs is to regulate the current into the LEDs (typical ~25ma) using something like a LM317. (good article at http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_lighting_leds.html ). Since the LEDs are going to run hot from the exhaust, they will likely be more reliable in current mode.

[Bisbonian]

msi1259,

thanks a lot for the info. I had no idea on how to hook these up and this looked like the easiest way for me. I'll see how they hold up for a little while but then I might swap things around a little the way you suggested.

[liljoec]

that looks awesome! great job!

[liljoec]

But then the Wee could only turn in one direction!

what does that have to do with anything? They definitely don't affect the bike's ability to turn... They are running lights.

[TomT]

Can you take a couple of pictures of them at night? I think that is a great idea!!!

[janiceclanfield]

what does that have to do with anything? They definitely don't affect the bike's ability to turn... They are running lights.

Uhhh. It's a joke. Get it???

Sheesh.:p

[liljoec]

Uhhh. It's a joke. Get it???

Sheesh.:p

Sorry, I guess by now I should just expect you to be dragging someone's thread off course.



Anyway Bisbonian, is there no worry about things getting too hot back there? I know on the 650 it would be too hot but I'm not familiar with the 1000

I too would like to see a pic at night

[The Golden Monkey]

Sorry, I guess by now I should just expect you to be dragging someone's thread off course.

No reason to hate on Janice; she didn't start the off-topic comments. And I thought her joke was funny.

[Heavy]

Sorry, I guess by now I should just expect you to be dragging someone's thread off course.

Ya, we really should maintain a razor sharp focus on this because LED lights in the end cap of a muffler is critical stuff. :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid this whole, crazy, motorcycle thing be fun and enjoyable.

[water warrior]

Heavy, have a project for you. Do the same thing using lasers. Get them thar tailgaters.

[Heavy]

Heavy, have a project for you. Do the same thing using lasers. Get them thar tailgaters.

A pocket full of roofing nails is much easier.

[nfsnfs]

@bisbonian , is the regulator directly getting 12v , XXAh battery ? can the regulator handle 14Ah or XXAh .....whatever current passing through it ?

[Bisbonian]

I'll try to take some pictures at night for those interested.

There's a good little bit of distance between the muffler and the heat shield, I don't know if heat will be a problem. I considered putting some sort of insulating material in there but didn't get around to it. If they burn out LED's are cheap enough (27 cents each) that I can retry it.

As for the regulator, it is a Radio Shack 7812. The only specs on it I have are up to 37 volts input, 1 amp output. The LED's are rated at 50 mA as far as I can tell so I don't think they should overload the regulator. If it does, I'll figure something out, after all the reg only cost $1.59.

[Vstromper]

Did you take some pics?

How'd your leds hold up to the heat?

I've been thinking of copying this but expanding it to include a set of 6 for running lights and a separate set of 6 for brakes and maybe adding some amber ones into the turn signal circuit. I'd like to know how yours held up though.

[Trooper32]

@bisbonian , is the regulator directly getting 12v , XXAh battery ? can the regulator handle 14Ah or XXAh .....whatever current passing through it ?

As was said before, the regulator isn't the way to go (unless you get an LM317 and run it in current mode). You can use a simple resistor. Here's the calculation:
Add up the voltage of all the LEDs that are wired in series (wired end to end). Subtract that voltage from your HIGHEST battery voltage, and divide what is left by the max current you want to use (usually on the LED data sheet. I would run them at less than the max value for longevity). This will give you a resistor value to wire in series with the LEDs. If you want to know how many watts the resistor needs to be, take the current value from before, square it, and multiply it by the calculated resistor value. Then double it for safety.
Keep in mind that the LEDs have a tolerance of how much voltage they will drop. There is a range. Your voltage must always be higher than all the drops of all the LEDs added together, or they won't light up. You can measure each LED's drop with a multimeter set to the "diode" setting (looks like an arrow with a bar across it).
Here's an example: 5 LEDs @ 2.2V drop each= 11V. 14.6V running voltage on the bike, minus 11V= 3.6V. 3.6V divided by .020 (20 milliamps)= 180 ohms. .02A times .02A times 180= .072 watts, so a 1/4 watt resistor will work.
Now, here is something to consider. When the motor isn't running, the battery voltage would be 12.5V roughly. That's 1.5V left over, with a 180 ohm resistor, you would have 8.33milliamps, which is a lot dimmer. If you had used 6 LEDs, they wouldn't light when the motor was not running.

[Bisbonian]

I haven't had a chance to get any pics, been a little under the weather lately. I rode the bike for the first time today since I've done the LED's. I've got a pretty good commute, a decent amount of distance along with some high speeds then sitting in traffic so the exhaust was probably as hot as it's going to get. Everything still lights up fine and I don't see any melting going on with anything.

The regulator may not be the best way to go but it seems to be working just fine. The LED's light up plenty bright with the engine off, I really haven't looked while it's been running. All in all I'm pretty happy. I promise to get some night pics tonight when I get home and post them. If I think about it I'll check voltage as well to see what the drop is.

[liljoec]

I haven't had a chance to get any pics, been a little under the weather lately. I rode the bike for the first time today since I've done the LED's. I've got a pretty good commute, a decent amount of distance along with some high speeds then sitting in traffic so the exhaust was probably as hot as it's going to get. Everything still lights up fine and I don't see any melting going on with anything.

The regulator may not be the best way to go but it seems to be working just fine. The LED's light up plenty bright with the engine off, I really haven't looked while it's been running. All in all I'm pretty happy. I promise to get some night pics tonight when I get home and post them. If I think about it I'll check voltage as well to see what the drop is.

awesome. Sure looks good. Glad to hear its workin out. Sorry to hear you have been ill though...

It would be really cool if you eventually wire them to your turn signals.

[Bisbonian]

I checked the voltage when I got home tonight. Sure enough, with the engine off I'm getting roughly 10 volts to the led's. They still light up so I'm not too worried about it.

Here's a couple of pictures I took tonight:

Engine off.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds011.jpg

Engine on.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/Bisbonian/leds012.jpg

They're definitely brighter when the engine's running. The led's I got have a narrow viewing angle so that is why some look dimmer than others.

I thought about hooking them up to the turn signals, I still may. That's the beauty of doing it all yourself, you can change whatever you want any time you wish.

[Vstromper]

I think it looks good. I hope you don't mind if I copy you. I ordered my leds today. I'l report back here when I'm done.

[bluesteel]

Have you had any feed back from someone riding behind you about the brightness of the LEDs while riding in the daytime or nighttime? Any issue with heat from the exhaust yet?

I think you did a great job. I might do that as well But add a brake light flasher from comagination.com (good review by webbikeworld.com) to the mix. I don't remember if you mention that you wanted narrow LEDs or is that the only choice.

[Trooper32]

The regulator may not be the best way to go but it seems to be working just fine. The LED's light up plenty bright with the engine off, I really haven't looked while it's been running.

Hey, what do I know. I only design electronics for a living.:rolleyes1: Remember, everything works fine until it fries.
You might be ok, but the formula I gave earlier will guarantee that it is right.
The problem with the regulator is that it will drop voltage, but there is still no current limiting. LEDs are constant voltage devices, but they are like a nearly short circuit when they have enough voltage to conduct. Chances are that something will blow in time, whether its the regulator or an LED. Or, maybe you will get lucky. It has been known to happen.
Whatever... it's a very cool idea. I thought I should let everyone else know the correct way to wire these up.
There are more efficient ways to do it these days, but what I wrote earlier is the "old standard" and the easiest to do (doesn't involve special ICs).

[Bisbonian]

Hey, what do I know. I only design electronics for a living.:rolleyes1: Remember, everything works fine until it fries.
You might be ok, but the formula I gave earlier will guarantee that it is right.
The problem with the regulator is that it will drop voltage, but there is still no current limiting. LEDs are constant voltage devices, but they are like a nearly short circuit when they have enough voltage to conduct. Chances are that something will blow in time, whether its the regulator or an LED. Or, maybe you will get lucky. It has been known to happen.
Whatever... it's a very cool idea. I thought I should let everyone else know the correct way to wire these up.
There are more efficient ways to do it these days, but what I wrote earlier is the "old standard" and the easiest to do (doesn't involve special ICs).

And I appreciate your input. Like I said, I had no idea how to go about this when I started and this seemed like the easiest way to go about it. The parts are very cheap so I see no harm in leaving it until something happens, after all it will only be an led or the reg that goes down. I'm sure other folks will take your advice and put it into their own version if they choose to do this mod. I know if I'd known how to do it in a better manner before I started then I would have. Right now I'd rather be riding than wrenching so I don't intend to do it over until it stops working.

I'm going on a couple hundred mile ride with a buddy tomorrow, I'll ask him how noticeable they are on the road and I'll also have a better idea how they are handling the stress of living in the exhaust environment.

[Trooper32]

And I appreciate your input. Like I said, I had no idea how to go about this when I started and this seemed like the easiest way to go about it. The parts are very cheap so I see no harm in leaving it until something happens, after all it will only be an led or the reg that goes down. I'm sure other folks will take your advice and put it into their own version if they choose to do this mod. I know if I'd known how to do it in a better manner before I started then I would have. Right now I'd rather be riding than wrenching so I don't intend to do it over until it stops working.



Re-reading what I wrote before, I didn't mean to sound as negative as I did last post. I was only trying to give the right information to anyone thinking of building a new set. Hey, if it works, don't fix it! I can dig that.

[Bisbonian]

Re-reading what I wrote before, I didn't mean to sound as negative as I did last post. I was only trying to give the right information to anyone thinking of building a new set. Hey, if it works, don't fix it! I can dig that.

I can appreciate that. If/when it all goes south I'll be doing it in a manner that works better. I'm printing off what you've posted so I'll be ready.

[cbjr0256]

If I wanted to do the same setup as bis, only a brake/tail light combination - what would be involved (are there two stage LEDs) other special wiring considerations that would supercede your original info about the resistor?

TIA,

[Vstromper]

I found this calculator (http://ledcalc.com/) and plugged in the numbers:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d59/Vstromper/led.jpg


My question is since the actual input voltage is variable will the LEDs work at idle when the actual input is just under 13 volts? If I calculate the input for the lower voltage will the LEDs burn out at sustained higher input? Shoud I wire in the voltage regulator and the resistor? Any help woiuld be appreciated.

[msi1259]

<snip>
My question is since the actual input voltage is variable will the LEDs work at idle when the actual input is just under 13 volts? If I calculate the input for the lower voltage will the LEDs burn out at sustained higher input? Shoud I wire in the voltage regulator and the resistor? Any help woiuld be appreciated.

You are likely safe to go to the next lowest standard resistor (68 ohms?) as 20 ma is pretty low for most LEDs. The LEDs the original poster used ( http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/r5015_specs.htm ) have a max of 50 ma and the luminous intensity (aka brightness) is double at 30 ma to what it is at 20 ma (from graphs at link). At less then 13 volts the current will be reduced, and the intensity will drop. Personally, I would drive them pretty hard, and if they started to burnt out, I'd lower the current!
The LED calculator page you used to find the resistor value has the following text:
Led current:
20mA will work for most regular leds.
Superbright leds can go from 30mA up to several amps.

[msi1259]

Another thought:
Put the ground connection for the Leds to the positive wire of the turn signal for the corresponding side. The lamp filament (low resistance when off) will provide the ground (and won't have enough current to light the filament), and will cause the LEDs to alternate with the turn signal.

[Trooper32]

THere are 2 things to consider when working with LEDs.
1. The turn-on voltage. If you have 6 LEDs at 2.2V, they won't be guaranteed to turn on, unless you have more than 13.2V supply. This is actually an oversimplified statement. The LEDs have a turn-on region where they are partially conducting before they are fully saturated. The idea is to run them as saturated as possible with extra voltage, and then current limit with a resistor. This means they will light more consistently.
2. LED current: this is what you're after. The more current (within the limits of the LED), the brighter. You might get partial turn-on at 12V, even with 6- 2.2V LEDs in series, but they will not be bright. They won't be at that saturated value you are going for.

For consistant brightness, you need the same current through the LEDs at low voltage as at high voltage. This is not possible with a simple resistor. The best compromise is to break your string of 6 LED's into 2 strings of 3, and use a resistor for each string.
The resistor will be dissipating more power, but there will be less difference in brightness between low battery and high battery (charging system) voltages.
Think of it this way:
If you have 5- 2.2V LEDs in series, you will have an 11 volt drop. If you use 14.6V for your high voltage, you get a current limiting resistor of 120 ohms for 30mA. If your battery goes to 12V when the engine isn't running, you will have only 8 mA, and a dim LED. I used 5 instead of 6 because it gets us out of that "unsaturated" region, for this example (makes the comparison more clear).
If we instead took 2- strings of 3 LEDs, we would have a drop of 6.6V. The ideal resistor would be 266 ohms for a 30mA current. Now what happens when it goes down to 12V?
You still get 20mA through the LED string. What you lose is a little efficiency, and you gain some heating in your resistor, which would be dissipating about .24 watts as heat. You would need 2- 1/2Watt resistors (one per string). Do you see the advantage in consistency?
What if we could have a variable resistor that would change to keep the current the same at all voltages? This is possible. It's a circuit called a current source.
I'll post one in a few minutes and show you how it works. It still has limitations. It still needs extra voltage to maintain your chosen current, but it will automatically adjust over a wide range.
Hope this helps a little.

[Trooper32]

You are likely safe to go to the next lowest standard resistor (68 ohms?) as 20 ma is pretty low for most LEDs. The LEDs the original poster used ( http://www.superbrightleds.com/specs/r5015_specs.htm ) have a max of 50 ma and the luminous intensity (aka brightness) is double at 30 ma to what it is at 20 ma (from graphs at link). At less then 13 volts the current will be reduced, and the intensity will drop. Personally, I would drive them pretty hard, and if they started to burnt out, I'd lower the current!
The LED calculator page you used to find the resistor value has the following text:
Led current:
20mA will work for most regular leds.
Superbright leds can go from 30mA up to several amps.

ALWAYS read the data sheets. Like MSI says, you will be giving up brightness if you don't get them pumping with enough current. If you don't mind replacing LEDs and you want max brightness, yes- run them at their max current rating. Good points, MSI.

[Trooper32]

A little bit of added complexity produces a lot more consistency.
I attached a circuit that will maintain current over a wider range that is not changed by battery voltage (within limits- discussed below).
It is an LM317 voltage regulator configured as a current source. These regulators are an old stand-by and can be found everywhere for about 50 cents.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/LM317T/search/ADJ._POS._REG._.html

Here is the formula. 1.3 divided by the resistor value= the current, but here is the catch:
The regulator must remain in compliance. The easy way to think of this is, it has to have some left over voltage to regulate the current with.
So, add up your LED drops, add 1.3V, and then you will be close the the minimum voltage that the regulator will need to be in compliance and regulating current. Go lower than this, and you will dim your LEDs. The higher you go, and the regulator will get warmer. Don't worry- these things can take quite a beating.
So now you have a circuit that will maintain your current over just about any battery voltage, so your LEDs will always look the same. You might have to use a couple strings with a regulator in each string, but nothing will melt down or go dim on you. Pretty easy circuit to wire up too.

[Trooper32]

By the way, the schematic I posted has a pin on the regulator that says "com". This is usually called "adj" as in adjust. Here's a picture of the regulator pinout:

[msi1259]

The LM317 is good for 1.5 amp, while the LM317L is physical smaller and rated 100 ma - it can easily be hidden in heat shrink going to the LEDs. (about the same price)

[Jimding]

Seems like you'd be better off running them in parallel, rather than series, so if one croaks, the rest would stay lit. Also, in a series setup, a change in condition (short, for example) can over-volt the rest, taking them out. A correct voltage source would necessarily provide the appropriate current, and since you only need 2 volts or so, would be insensitive to source voltage. After riding, the end caps on my Vee are usually cool enough to touch, so I doubt temp is an issue. I rather suspect vibration may be a problem, though. Not with the LED's but with the wiring. Considering that LED's and regulators are so cheap and light, if I intended to use some for brake lights, I'd wire normal LED's for running lights and an extra set of superbrights powered by the brake light circuit. If you want the LED's to provide a wider angle of brightness, you can flatten the end of the lens with a dremel, which will also rough it up, but of course they'll appear somewhat dimmer, since the light is being dispersed over a wider angle and lens efficiency will be diminished. Might think about blinking the brake lights, as the sharp rise time of LED's tends to get attention better. I haven't (yet) taken apart any of the LED running or brake lights as used on semi trailers, but I expect you might find the parts useful and the price reasonable.

[Stormchicken]

You posted that he should use an LM7812 regulator. Why not use an LM7805 and run the LEDs in parallel at 5V? LEDs love to run at 5V. Don't need a ballast resistor, either.

[BiOg]

I know, I know, a little off topic,

I started reading this thread (nice job by the way, I like the idea) and figured out that not doing circuits for the last 12 years had me rusty.

I found this little tid bit and I'm having a blast refreshing my basics:

http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/elec_circuits/circ101.html

Not transistor design, but fun stuff.

[Axelwik]

As was said before, the regulator isn't the way to go (unless you get an LM317 and run it in current mode). You can use a simple resistor. Here's the calculation:
Add up the voltage of all the LEDs that are wired in series (wired end to end). Subtract that voltage from your HIGHEST battery voltage, and divide what is left by the max current you want to use (usually on the LED data sheet. I would run them at less than the max value for longevity). This will give you a resistor value to wire in series with the LEDs. If you want to know how many watts the resistor needs to be, take the current value from before, square it, and multiply it by the calculated resistor value. Then double it for safety.
Keep in mind that the LEDs have a tolerance of how much voltage they will drop. There is a range. Your voltage must always be higher than all the drops of all the LEDs added together, or they won't light up. You can measure each LED's drop with a multimeter set to the "diode" setting (looks like an arrow with a bar across it).
Here's an example: 5 LEDs @ 2.2V drop each= 11V. 14.6V running voltage on the bike, minus 11V= 3.6V. 3.6V divided by .020 (20 milliamps)= 180 ohms. .02A times .02A times 180= .072 watts, so a 1/4 watt resistor will work.
Now, here is something to consider. When the motor isn't running, the battery voltage would be 12.5V roughly. That's 1.5V left over, with a 180 ohm resistor, you would have 8.33milliamps, which is a lot dimmer. If you had used 6 LEDs, they wouldn't light when the motor was not running.

Yep, I've always used resistors for LEDs. They're a lot cheaper and easier than trying to wire up a regulator.

[Highveelocity]

Isn't there a LED socket available that they can just plug in, instead of having to re-solder them if they burn out? I used to work with my step dad in his electronics shop in the late 70's and I seem to remember something like this.

[greywolf]

There's lots of info on LED lights at http://11109.rapidforum.com/topic=110477528285

[clovett]

This is an old thread but when I went to put LED's on my bike I decided to use LED's with built in resistors that I can just power up. These are really simple to use and I can put them anywhere by just hooking them to a 12v source. In my case switched to my fuse box. I got the blue ones and they are BRIGHT

I got mine with 3ft pre-soldered leads

http://ledaccentlights.net/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=71

[TrooperDad]

This is an old thread but when I went to put LED's on my bike I decided to use LED's with built in resistors that I can just power up. These are really simple to use and I can put them anywhere by just hooking them to a 12v source. In my case switched to my fuse box. I got the blue ones and they are BRIGHT

I got mine with 3ft pre-soldered leads

http://ledaccentlights.net/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=71

What did you do with the blue LED's?

[clovett]

What did you do with the blue LED's?

I put them all over my blue DL650 lighting up the front wheel, the motor and the upper rear wheel as running lights. When the weather gets better I'm going to put about 15 more on. I am trying to figure out some way to get them to light the front of the engine. I had not thought about the exhaust but that won't work for my DL650 anyway. I thought it would but when I looked the can is way different. However I think I can put some on my license plate.

One of the hardest things I found was getting them to stick in place and stay focused on what I wanted lit. If they aren't spot on you don't get the effect. I found dabs of clear silicone did the trick and holds them in place.

[Heavy]

I put them all over my blue DL650 lighting up the front wheel, the motor and the upper rear wheel as running lights. When the weather gets better I'm going to put about 15 more on. I am trying to figure out some way to get them to light the front of the engine. I had not thought about the exhaust but that won't work for my DL650 anyway. I thought it would but when I looked the can is way different. However I think I can put some on my license plate.

One of the hardest things I found was getting them to stick in place and stay focused on what I wanted lit. If they aren't spot on you don't get the effect. I found dabs of clear silicone did the trick and holds them in place.

Think you could figure out how to attach them to your clothes?

http://www.goldwings.org.uk/images/lightsuits.jpg

[clovett]

Think you could figure out how to attach them to your clothes?

Sure, but my helmet is loud enough being a glowing safety neon color. Besides I'm pretty ugly and I'm trying to divert attention to the bike and Elvis is alive and doesn't want me to infringe on his creativity.

I think I'll buy some SW-Motech crash bars so I can rig some runners down to my centerstand in place of a skid plate. Then I can mount LEDs that will light up the front of my engine and hide them