Remove Secondaries ? [Archive]

Velociraptor

04-18-2005, 06:17 PM

Yep. I took mine out. Not a big job. I have a PCIII also. I didn't notice any difference at all. Its also supposed to remove the top speed limiter. I'll probably never find out the top speed of this bike anyway. Seems like if you have a Powercommander it doesn't make much difference from the posts I've seen. Maybe with no PCIII it helps. I left my secondaries out because I am too lazy to put them back in.

CDN_RN

04-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Step by step instructions for the mechanically challenged? :wink:

Velociraptor

04-19-2005, 11:18 AM

Remove the air filter. Look down each intake and you can see a round metal disk. Each disk is held in place by two small screws. Remove the screws-not too hard. DO NOT LET THE SCREWS DROP INTO THE INTAKE!!!. If you do that do not start the engine. You will have to get them out somehow. Otherwise they will be sucked into the combustion chamber or get stuck under an intake valve and do all manner of bad things. Once the screws are removed the metal disk will slide out. Do this for both intakes. That's it.

Warhammer

04-19-2005, 07:55 PM

I have a PCIII also. I didn't notice any difference at all.

Yep. It seems to be the consensus that the 'Stroms that show the biggest difference are the more stock ones. Those with a Power Commander seem to see little to no difference. My engine was bone-stock until I removed the secondary butterflies. WOW!!! I could feel the difference within the first 10 yards! Throttle respoinse is snappier and smoother. Also, the mid-RPM "chudder" has almost (but not completely) disappeared. I also adjusted the throttle cables per the owner's manual when I did this mod. (Most Zuke dealers do a pretty crappy job of prepping the 'Strom for sale, IMO.)

chuckwagon

04-19-2005, 09:52 PM

Those that have the PCIII USB, have you tried the 04/05 map available from the PC website? It is richer than any other stock map, (up to 33% in one place). I'm running this map with the accelerator pump upgrade and the secondaries removed. The pump upgrade makes a difference only if you have the secondaries removed. It shoots extra fuel when the throttle is snapped open (programmable), and is really needed if you don't have the secondary throttle plates to limit the airflow while the engine is catching up. It all goes back to the large Holley carbs we use to run on our cars. When the throttle is snapped open quickly, the engine vacume is lost momentarily until the rpms get high enough to produce the required vacume. So to overcome this loss of vacume, and the resulting loss of fuel/air mixture, the accelerator pump was born. Now, you can have the best of both worlds, with the large throttle body/fuel injection, (thanks Suzuki), minus the secondaries, and an accelerator pump.
However, I doubt if you could tell any difference with the secondaries intact though.
Try it, you'll like it. And it's free for the USB model only.

Vicar

04-26-2005, 10:37 AM

Finally got a chance to ride the "Yellow Peril" (munged my knee, needed surgery, long story) after installing the PowerCommander back in December.
No more low speed engine shudder/chatter.
Goes LOTS faster.
Gets better gas mileage at "normal" speeds.
Whitens the smile, freshens the breath and drive women mad with desire.
OK, I made the last one up. Sorry.
This is a must buy addition to the bike.
The Vicar

SpeedStar

04-26-2005, 12:49 PM

Before I take everything apart to do this, I just want to make sure that the 650 has the secondary TB that the 1000 has and that it benefits from this removal.

All reviews of these benefits have come from 1000 owners. Any 650 owners who have also done this mod?

Chris

04-26-2005, 11:37 PM

Hey Speedstar
yeah the 650 has the secondaries...

I keep looking for data on the 650 too, and if secondary removal is worth the trip.

I did see, on Yahoo "vstrom2" group.. they have a database of 13 people who did the mod and what was there impression

All 13 loved it, only one guy listed his bike as a DL 650.

I am still hunting... i'll let you know..

Funny thing... I keep looking on the SV 650 forums.. nobody is talking about it over there... SV has the secondaries as well...

So, Who knows I'll keep looking

:?:

SpeedStar

04-27-2005, 10:47 AM

Hey Chris, sounds like we are in the same boat. I will wait to see what you find out and If I come across anything on it I will let you know.

You would think we could find something specific to the 650 and if it is worth doing it.

NW Strom

05-01-2005, 12:12 AM

Hello everyone :D You know early on I was disgusted with the way my 1000 k4 ran below 4 grand. It was horrible, however with time (3500 miles) it improved to the point of nearly gone. The only thing that was still lingering was a slight mushy feeling throttle response in that range. With all that said I read and read many posts. What I came up with was secondary removal as means to possibly clean the throttle response up. Let me tell you that was the best hour spent the difference was incredible. :shock: My advice would be remove them and stay as close to stock ie no pcII unless you are planning on pipes ect. Just My version of Finding V-Strom engine bliss. I'm truly happy with the results. Happy riding Steve NW Strom

JRE

05-02-2005, 08:41 AM

I think I'm going to try this when I get some free time to actually do it Taking off the plastic and such is a pain.

NW Strom

05-02-2005, 09:32 PM

[b]:D Sounds great it is actually pretty easy to do. None of the side plastic has to come off. I could walk you through it if you would like just let me know if i can help.
NW Strom Steve

BradM

05-04-2005, 08:06 PM

I pulled my secondaries in my 1000 about 10 days ago, and have put about 1000 miles on it since then just out playing around. I found that in balancing the throttle bodies the secondaries seemed to prevent it staying balanced through the rpm ranges, you could see them flutter a bit at times. After removal and doing the balance they stayed within .5" thoughout the throttle range where before I would see a 2-3" difference.

The bike does seem to have more snap on the low end and pulls better from the 3k range on up. I haven't noticed any decrease in fuel mileage either. And previously I couldn't get the bike to do anything over 130mph indicated, and now I have seen 145 and more to come before I had to back off, so it seems the ecm is using these as restrictors to the top end as opposed to some ignition timing restrictor.

The removal was a piece of cake, just get to air filter and all you need is a screwdriver and a set of needlenose pliers. I also put a magnetic tool next to each screw as I was removing it to prevent from dropping down to the main butterflies. After the screws are out it just slides out of shaft, I marked which side was out and which throttle body it goes back into in case I wanted to replace them. But no plans to do that, I like the way the bike is running.

JRE

05-08-2005, 04:35 PM

[b]:D Sounds great it is actually pretty easy to do. None of the side plastic has to come off. I could walk you through it if you would like just let me know if i can help.
NW Strom Steve

Do you not have to pull of the tank, etc?

NW Strom

05-08-2005, 06:56 PM

Yes the tank has to be removed. It was really quite simple.
1. remove the seat
2. Remove the screws holding the trim on either side of the lowerportion of the seat.(Black pieces)
3. remove the left and right screws at the tanks top.
4. remove left and right screws holding body pieces to fairing and tank.
5. locate small center trim piece ahead of the gas tank ( black Plastic)
remove this piece and locate the front tank mount bolt.
6. remove this bolt
7. remove rear tank bolt and lift tank slightly. doing this from the right side of the bike look under the tank and locte the fuel line.Release the clips by sqeezing them and slide the line off. you will only lose a drop or two of fuel Then locte the fuel pump wire connector and disconnect it. It helps if you are low on fuel it makes things easy as the tank will be lighter.
8. slide tank reward out from under the painted side plastic and set safely aside.
9. remove air box lid and filter.(if your mileage is over 6k Have a filter around to replace the old one)
10. locate secondarys remove them carefully remeber to not drop the screws into the throttle bodys.
11. reassemble in reverse order.Making sure the airfilter is seated properly in the right position., and the fuel line and wires are tightly and Properly plugged in.
12. enjoy the great work that you have done
The most important thing to remeber is take your time. This is not a difficult task, it just takes patience to do it without dinging up the finish on your bike.

JRE

05-09-2005, 04:02 PM

Thanks for the detail. From the maintenance manual, I gathered that this is what is involved in the process. Not difficult but It's still a pain to get to. I barely have time to ride much less rip it apart :)

SpeedStar

05-17-2005, 09:42 AM

NW Strom, thanks for the clear instructions. It sounds very easy. I will get around to this eventually. Thanks.

BBurton "BigB"

06-08-2005, 11:19 PM

rider1951

06-09-2005, 12:29 AM

Funny thing... I keep looking on the SV 650 forums.. nobody is talking about it over there... SV has the secondaries as well...

My buddy has an 03 SV650.. I am pretty dang sure that they don't have them!!

I'm not sure the SV650 has them but on the SV1000 forum I've been lurking on there is no mention of it. I posted a request to see if anyone there has removed the secondaries. I'll let you know what I find out.

Dave

Swedge

06-09-2005, 01:27 PM

rider1951

06-09-2005, 06:50 PM

Checked the SV1000 forum and some of the guys there have tried removing the secondaries with not much noticable difference. The SV runs so much better than the DL I really don't think there is a need to remove them.

Dave

Swedge

06-10-2005, 03:34 PM

I wonder if this is just a case of the Bike seemingly running better by removal of the secondarys by being slower and less abrupt acceleration wise? any body have any hard numbers?

zlssefi

08-31-2006, 11:11 PM

for those of you guys who have removed your secondarys...have you removed the rods that drive the secondarys or just the butterflys themselves? i removed the rods...motor still runs strong, but im being told it sets off a fi code, and makes the motor run on limp home mode....any thoughts?

StarWatcher

09-01-2006, 12:26 AM

zlssefi

09-01-2006, 06:34 AM

zlssefi

09-01-2006, 06:35 AM

Big B

09-01-2006, 09:41 AM

You don't remove the rods!!!!!!!!

StarWatcher

09-01-2006, 09:44 AM

the rods i removed are the ones that run through the secondaries to turn them....the problem is....the engine is in a mini- race car...and the previous owner removed the stock guages so i have no idea if it throws a code or not...just wanted to find out if those of you with stock guages had any problems....

It may be hard to compare the bike with your mini-car. For example, it would be hard to say what the ECM on your mini-car would do if there were a problem with the seconday throttle system. On the bike, two of the failure modes ( C28 and C29) on the 650 will cause the ECM to stop controlling the seconday throttle valves. You'd have to look at your mini-car's shop manual to see what it would do under similar circumstances.

-Mike

zlssefi

09-01-2006, 07:08 PM

There really is no manual for the race car....its a homebuilt creation with a stock gsxr1000 in it....we turn the engine sideways and bolt a driveshaft onto the output of the transmission, instead of a chain sprocket.....as far as removing the rods......will it cause some sort of damage to the engine? im still debating as to wether or not i should put them back in...but if it wont hurt ill leave them out....any suggestions?

StarWatcher

09-01-2006, 09:04 PM

...its a homebuilt creation with a stock gsxr1000 in it....
....any suggestions?

If it were me, I'd get the shop manual for the gsxr1000 for the same year as your engine ( there seem to be some on ebay for about $10.00 ) and take a peek at how its secondary throttle system works. It should give you any trouble codes and what the ECM will do if it sees those codes. It should also show you the mechanical aspects of your secondary throttle valve system and you'd be able to tell if just removing the rods was a good idea for that motor.

--Mike

SithDL

09-03-2006, 10:31 PM

So what are the secondarys supposed to Do? I mean why were they put on the bike? Emissions? As a way to keep Strom owners from embarrassing GSXR-1000s???
I mean what are the side effects of removing them. I mean I can see more TOP end at the expense of bottom end ect ect.. It just sounds too good to be true!!
The secondaries are there to control airflow in to the engine and to prevent stalling/bucking when there are low rpm/wide throttle opening situations. They serve the same purpose as vaccuum operated slides in a CV carb, but it's all computer controlled. All fuel injected Suzukis from the last several years (since the SRAD days) have computer controlled secondaries. Suzuki's acronym for it is SDTV (Suzuki Dual Throttle Valve).

boomslanger

09-04-2006, 01:51 AM

are there to control airflow in to the engine and to prevent stalling/bucking when there are low rpm/wide throttle opening situations. They serve the same purpose as vaccuum operated slides in a CV carb, but it's all computer controlled. All fuel injected Suzukis from the last several years (since the SRAD days) have computer controlled secondaries. Suzuki's acronym for it is SDTV (Suzuki Dual Throttle Valve).

There are a lot of positives for removing them being posted, what are the negatives?

Heavy

09-04-2006, 10:18 AM

More intake noise and some feel the throttle is too sensitive. Personally? I'm leaving mine off. : )

RomperStromper

09-17-2006, 07:29 AM

This is my understanding of the SDTV (aka secondary butterfly)

Conventional fuel injection will inheriantly give a jerky throttle response, on light powerfull machines, especially when ridding at low speeds, like around town in traffic... the reason is that, like all digital devices its operates on numbers,... think of it like this.. carbies are stepless in their control like a ramp, FI is like a series of numbered steps instead of a ramp.... the more small steps is smoother than a few big ones, but their still steps and you can't make a selection half way between two steps. So at low throttle settings on a powerfull, torquey engine FI can give a jerky ride (like step 5 or step 6, but no step 5.2 5.3 etc)... the secondary butterfly is designed to smooth out the steps by controlling air flow, and make the bike easier to ride in "normal" conditions, such as traffic or more importantly for me - on dirt. But they will lead to a little bit more terbulance in the air/fuel flow, but so will the shaft when the butterfly is removed and so will the primary butterfly, so not a big deal really.

Still reading?... so heres my opinion.... Removal of secondarys will probably make the bike feel more responsive, because you re-introduce the steps that SDTV gets rid of. But this will not translate to much more actual power, just the "impression" of more power because of the "twitchyer" throttle response. It will however make the bike harder to ride smoothly at low thottle openings, which for me (I like some tight dirt) would be a real pain. I think if the strom isn't powerfull enough, you just got the wrong bike, there's plenty of more powerfull bikes out there, but they're not a versitile as a strom!

Finally ... ever ridden a 20+ year old 2 stroke dirt bike, before power valves.. the powerband was like an on/off switch, loads of fun but hardto ride well ... newer 2strokes have smoothed out the powerband, so thier easier to ride, and the the new ones have more power. The old ones sure were a handfull and sort of felt faster !!! ;)

Hope this puts some light on the subject
RS

rcacs

09-17-2006, 10:10 AM

I have tried it on my Wee. I noticed no difference other than more intake noise.
Infact, I suspect low end suffered slightly.

Seems the 1000 benefits from it tho.

Cheers

Big B

09-17-2006, 10:14 AM

Still reading?... so heres my opinion.... Removal of secondarys will probably make the bike feel more responsive, because you re-introduce the steps that SDTV gets rid of. But this will not translate to much more actual power, just the "impression" of more power because of the "twitchyer" throttle response. It will however make the bike harder to ride smoothly at low thottle openings, which for me (I like some tight dirt) would be a real pain. I think if the strom isn't powerfull enough, you just got the wrong bike, there's plenty of more powerfull bikes out there, but they're not a versitile as a strom!

I feel that my low end is smoother with them out! :shock: As far as "twitchy" throttle response....it is much more responsive and quicker to rev, not twitchy. Myself and others still feel that this is more for emissions crap, and limiting the top speed and RPM's, then anything else. Mine will never be going back in, as far as I am concerned. Everything that I am starting to hear about the 07 WeeStrom, has me wanting to hold onto my 1000 for a long time. They are gonna make it harder and harder to let us work on and tune our own bikes. Just like todays cars....you can change the oil, airfilter and brakes....that is about it! :evil: We are all gonna miss the oldschool bikes, one of these days!

StarWatcher

09-17-2006, 12:21 PM

The Suzuki Dual Throttle Valve (SDTV) system was introduced in 2000 in Suzuki's GSX-R series. The intention was to provide a method to control the air intake speed at low RPM's at full throttle. According to some commentary I've seen, they may also have been used to provide some top end restriction on some bikes over the years. One of the earliest descriptions I've seen is here:

http://www.futzin.com/motorcycle/suzukiGSXR.pdf ( Chapter 6 )

From the text:

"The benefits of the dual throttle valves were experienced primarily at the low end of the rpm spread, with a maximum of 8 percent more torque near the bottom of the band. This was because the secondary throttle valves limited air intake to preserve velocity at low revs. The throttles thus could be sized larger to pass sufficient air for maximum high-rpm power."

I've run with and without the secondaries on the 650K6 and haven't noticed much of a difference. Perhaps a little more low end grunt during low speed maneuvers but I'm not convinced that it wasn't just the slight increase in idle speed resulting from the removal of the plates leaving me with that impression. Since full throttle at low RPM's isn't something I do very often, I can't comment on that aspect of removing the secondaries though.

--Mike

mokusbajusz

09-17-2006, 03:52 PM

So what are the secondarys supposed to Do? I mean why were they put on the bike? Emissions?

I am wondering the same.

There must be a reason that led Suzuki engineers to design the parts putting on, and I do not feel more clever than engineers to remove them.

This is all about balance. Designers had to find the setting on this engine to match the bike's overall image. The DL is not a racebike as it is not a dirtbike as well. It is an extremely versatile tourer/commuter.

You can (re)set your bike with different tricks and tools to get higher speeds or smoother low rpm response or higher mpg, etc, but as a result some other characteristic will be surely worse.
The same is with the tires:
1. having lower pressure resulting better gravel capability but worse on pavement
2. there is no ultimate tyre: one performs well in wet but last not so long or an other is good on a racetrack but useless on gravel, etc.

This is opportunism.

BTW I am pretty happy with the engine as is. Just my opinion.

(PS: same with the Trailwings. Am I opportunist? :wink: )

zlssefi

09-23-2006, 08:05 AM

well guys...the secondaries....rods and everything were removed from my gsxr 1070 in my race car....i went out for the first race, started 12 and finished 3rd....the following week i started 6th and openedup a half track lead on 2nd place and won the race...i felt noticeable pull difference down the straightaways and thats with a 1300 pound car....i also had the computer scanned for codes and none came up....my opinion is pull them out if your looking for tourque and power!

water warrior

09-23-2006, 11:07 PM

Zlssefi, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. The Stroms are not race bikes run at full throttle on a track the way your car is run. I think Suzuki did a fine job on my Wee bike during the design stage and I won't be trying to fix it, it ain't broke. The bike does everything asked of it and I am satisfied. For those wanting to tinker, go for it, that is what life is all about.

capfo01

09-29-2006, 01:59 PM

... For those wanting to tinker, go for it, that is what life is all about.

I don't usually buy into the hype that you read on internet forums but I was changing the air filter this morning and figured "what the heck, I'll try it". So I pulled the secondaries out, put the bike back together and ...holly cow! It really does improve the bikes performance!.....and noticably!

Now saying that, I'm with Warrior. For those that like to tinker, got for it. Those that don't, leave it alone. I just happen to fall into the first catagory. :wink: