Hidden pitfalls changing front springs...?

[FireDog45]

It looks like we'll be changing out the front springs on Scarlet Harlot's Wee and I would like to know if there are any hidden pitfalls to be aware of? I've read through the manual and it looks pretty straight forward but wanted to run it by everyone here before digging in.

I've seen some comments during my search that removing the forks isn't necessary unless we're changing fork oil, true or false?

Any suggestions / comments / help would be appreciated.

[LucasD]

It is straight forward, and it's true that you do not have to remove the forks if you are not changing the fluid.

I have done it both ways and neither way if very difficult. The hardest part of removing the front forks was finding the 12mm hex socket for the front axle.

Good luck.

[Scarlett Harlot]

I'm changing to the 15wt fork oil as was recommended by Rich. I will be ordering the springs this week I hope. Just need one more chat with Mr Desmond. I do have the 12mm hex for the front axle

[LucasD]

I was going to recommend that you change the oil in addition to changing the springs, but it's a personal preference kind of thing. Rich recommended a fluid weight change for me also, and it made a big difference.

Since you have the elusive 12mm tool, then the second hardest part for me was finding a decent way to support the front of the bike. I ended up using a ratcheting strap over one of the roof joists in my garage. I wasn't too confident in the joist, so I also cut and wedged a 2X4 between the joist and the garage floor.

In the end, everything worked out great.

[Scarlett Harlot]

I think that Firedog is holding the front end up while I change out the springs. I'll hurry.

[LucasD]

I think that Firedog is holding the front end up while I change out the springs. I'll hurry.


:-D I'll call him the next time I do mine.

[bill l]

Remember the front fender is captive until one fork is removed. The manual says different.

[tmcgee]

Remember the front fender is captive until one fork is removed. The manual says different.

Speaking of the front fender, there are threaded steel squares that secure the fender on the top sides. When you are putting everything back together, holding these little buggers in place was the hardest part of the whole job. I used a piece of electrical tape to hold them.

This comment will become clear when you're trying to get everything back together.

[FireDog45]

Thanks all!

I have an ATV lift I'm borrowing from my Bro in law and I have access to an engine hoist so we should be able to come up with something to hold it up. I won't be able to hold it up myself since I'll need a free hand for the beer!

Well Harlot, it looks like we're in the spring changing bidness. Once we get a day picked out we'll invite the gang over to watch, help or just laugh (whichever is most appropriate).

[tmcgee]

I have an ATV lift I'm borrowing from my Bro in law and I have access to an engine hoist so we should be able to come up with something to hold it up.

I used the scissors jack from the 4-wheeler under the engine case. I also have a center stand.

[Tollster]

Heres is how I did mine, assuming you have the bike supported.
1: Remove both front calipers, and secure them with bungies
2: Remove front wheel assembly
3: Remove front fender, and associated hardware, cable clamps etc.
4: ** Your front wheel assembly should now be clean, nothing but fork tubes from the lower triple tree down.
5: Loosen up your preload settings
6:Prior to lossening the fork leg from the triple trees, break loose the large HEX on top of tubes, do both now.
7: Loosen one fork leg at a time, do not let it slide out of the triple trees and bang the floor, loosen the top one fully, then a little at a time on the lower while your hold the leg.
8: Put some of the ol lady's towels in the vase and lightly snug it up around the top of the fork leg. Do not crush, nor mar the exterior of the leg. If you have help have a buddy hold the leg.
9: Having a bucket nearby, and keeping your face away from the top of the tube and remove the large hex bolt. Remove the O'ring, spacer and spring from the tube. Let the oil bleed off the spring into the bucket
10: Turn the dissasembled fork tube upside down and empty the oil into the bucket, extend and compress the assembly to ensure all oil has been removed form the internals
11:Now add some new oil to the leg, extending and compressing the leg to remove any and all trapped air from the internals. ( Typical amount would be almost to the top of leg when fully compressed)
12: Reinstall sring according to the new manufactures guidlines, ensureing the spring is rightside up.
13: Add more oil, and using the Motion Pro airspace tool
http://www.faster-motocross.com/images/15-8121lg.jpg
Set air space according to instructions, ensure leg is plumb during this proceedure. This tool removes the excess oil once you set the slide to the proper height.
14: reassemble fork leg in reverse order
15: Preform same operation on other leg.
** Note I may have steps 12 and 13 reversed, perhaps someone here can help as I froget if I set the oil level first before installing spring.
Hope this helps, this is what I remember when I did mine in March. Its a very easy job, if you have any mechanical skills, perhaps rebuilt 2 strokes in the past, or adjusted your valves, on a scale of 1-10 this is a 3. Sounds like you have read up on it, so I feel very confident you can handle this task. I was nervous to as I had never been there before, but have been turning bike wrenches for over 35 years. Mostly top ends of 2 and 4 strokes with some Harley wrenching in between, cams, push rods, oil pumps, and such...You can do this!

[Scarlett Harlot]

Hey Tollster

When you added the fork oil did you use the PJ1 15wt and approx. how much did you need to add to reach the 150mm level?

Thanks

[LucasD]

Hey Tollster

When you added the fork oil did you use the PJ1 15wt and approx. how much did you need to add to reach the 150mm level?

Thanks

I'm sure Tollster will answer also, but it's easier to add the full quart (liter) of fluid
and then get a turkey baster, or something similar, mark a 150mm line on it, and simply
suck the excess fluid out.

[Scarlett Harlot]

Is it truely necessary to change to 15wt fluid or is the stock fluid OK to use? What do you gain from the thicker fluid?

[LucasD]

Is it truely necessary to change to 15wt fluid or is the stock fluid OK to use? What do you gain from the thicker fluid?


The first time around, I swapped springs but left the stock fluid in and found that the front end was still too soft.

Rich recommended that I mix some 10W and 15W fluid to get to about a 12.5 weight, but
on the weekend I was ready to swap the fluid, I could only find 10 weight. The front end is better with the 10 weight, but I think I could jump to up to 15 weight and be even happier.

Rich also said that the level of the fluid would make a difference. If a 150mm gap is too soft for you, you could add fluid to reduce it to 140mm and that would also stiffen up the front end.

It's all based on your weight and personal preference, so you may have to try several different weights and levels until you get it just the way you like it.

My weight in gear is about 185 pounds.

[Scarlett Harlot]

My weight is currently 240# without gear and I am in the process of losing more with a target of 225. Riding gear adds about 15 to 20# depending on which gear I'm wearing. I really don't have the luxury of experimenting to find the right combination of oils as I am dependent on the help of others and their time to assist with the fork swap and any subsequent fork work. I would like to get this as reasonably close as possible the first time. I have been counseled that the dampening of the forks will slow down dramatically with the higher viscosity oil. But, would this be a problem for the average rider of my weight???

[Tollster]

The turkey baster idea will work also, but I think you would have a higher degree of acuracy with the tool, the amount would only be negliable though. Like Lucas said, add excess oil and suck it out. Mark the baster with tape at the proper height (Bottom of tape to tip of baster) Hold the bottom of the tape parrarell with the top of the tube and suck it up. This is how you establish airspace.
I used wilber springs so the windings are most certianly different as wilbers recommended 7.5 weight oil. It was hard to find around here so I email ordered 2 quarts to ensure I was covered. I used just over a quart for both legs.
Mine are still stiff, even with zero preload and I will more than likely change something this winter.
Thinner oil will reflect in a softer ride.
Thicker oil will be stiffer.
The oil viscostity is set to the manufactures recommendations and is intended to work consistently throughout the spring travel, the coils and sping thickness are what gives you different spring rates throughout the travel in a progressive spring. Which is more than likely what you have, hence softer up top and as it compresses, it getts harder, much like an MX rear suspention, only with less travel, so its not as noticable.
Adding more oil than recommended is good for fine tuning, but care must be excersise as this increases pressure on the seals if large amounts are added. It would be better to increase your spacer length. However 100mm less arispace would more than likely not hurt the seals, just be causious.
Set it up accordingly, don't take any short cuts, because you really do not want to go back when you should be out riding. Any improvment will beat the stocker by leaps and bounds (Hehhee, pun intended). Play with the dampening and if your not happy, then make your adjustments. You need to establish a baseline on your suspension before you can adjust it to your liking. The baseline is the manufactures recommendations.
Typically when you order spring the manufacture should have asked you some specific questions about your weight, fully dressed, your riding style, touring, sport,off road, etc. And perhaps how often you carry additional passengers, their weight, and any added luggage weights, also you bike weight wet or dry. They then assign a specific weight spring to your order, most in kilograms. So you may have a 95KG spring and someone else here may have the 85KG spring. Therefore what worked for him may not work for you as the spring rates are very different.
You may find someone close your size and weight here, http://11109.rapidforum.com/area=83 that could help with the fine tuning or setup recommendations, what has worked and what didn't. It could save allot of time.
Good luck and let us know how you make out, Sorry about all the misspellings, i hope you get the jest of it all. I never had typing in school so many times when I am hunting and pecking, my mind is allot further ahead of my fingers:)
Ummm, had the same problem on prom night....a long...very long time ago......

[bill l]

I have the Wilbers front and rear. I installed the dual rate springs soft side down and used exactly one quart of their 7.5. The suspension is good enough that I'm not messing with it. Maybe try checking your fluid level before you get too crazy changing things. It may be that simple. 175 lb rider and using preload.

[Scarlett Harlot]

My springs are gonna be here on Tuesday. It's like waiting for Christmas.

[Scarlett Harlot]

The little brown truck has just turned down my street.

[Kawidad]

I bought the Sonic springs and put the 15w oil as Rich recommended, but found the 15w too heavy. It worked great off road, but was too stiff for the highway. So, I think that 10w would be better if you ride on the road a lot, but 15w if your off road more.

[boatvs]

patwalsh & harbor freight atv lift are the key to lifting happiness:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6534/lift001he5.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lift001he5.jpg)

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1857/lift003uw2.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lift003uw2.jpg)

[FireDog45]

I have an ATV lift but never considered using a piece of plywood to spread the load, thanks for the picts! I was able to balance my bike once on the lift but I haven't been able to do it again, this should make it easier!

Later