The Willow Creek, CA, disaster.....

[Doug-in-Skamania]

News at 11

[Mr. Fisherman]

oh no...
Hope you boys are ok...

[mirage]

The suspense is agonizing...

[Mr. Fisherman]

Doug.... come clean... Don't make me come looking for you...

Tell us what is up...

[Doug-in-Skamania]

Sorry, did not have access to the internet for a couple of days. There were some issues with Mark's bike. I'll let him post later and share the details.

[Berserker]

Some of us have talked about accepting the risks associated with riding, Monday at a little after 1 P.M. on California 96 just North of Willowcreek California I confronted those risks nearly head on.

Riding thru some curves behind a black Chevy Impala, a small, blue sedan came flying around a curve fading to the outside, over steering to the left and then right into the Chevy's lane hitting it almost head on. I was about 100'+ behind the Impala, all I saw was a blue car spinning into my lane that was about to hit me head on...my choices were...hit it head on, rear end the Impala or lay the bike down and hope for the best in taking a slide down the road. Taking the least deadly of the 3 choices I laid the Strom over, hit the road hard, got away from the oncoming blue sedan and now stopped Impala, sliding to the right of the whole scene.

I came to a stop hitting the middle part of my right arm on the steel guard rail, this stopped the slide. As I laid there, doing an assessment if there was anything seriously wrong, toe's, fingers, legs, arms moved...good signs. My right arm moved but I felt a slight clicking when moving...break right arm. Unlatched my helmet trying to lift the chin guard but it was broken and wouldn't open. Once I got the helmet off it was pretty clear that the helmet took some pretty hard hits.

The 3 kids in the Impala came thru the whole thing with no real injuries thanks to their air bags, the lady that caused the wreck and her baby went to the hospital on back boards by ambulance, I rode to the hospital via Arnold’s CHP.

All in all, it could have been much worse…6 inches from where my slide stopped was a 30 foot drop to a river. So even with a broken arm, trashed Strom and having to suffer through the medical and insurance systems, it was a lucky day!

I want to thank Doug-In-Skamania for all his help, a great friend!

Also, I'd like to thank the CHP officer and Buddy's towing in Willowcreek. Buddy's a biker and was very careful handling my Strom.

One more thing...ATGATT SAVED MY A$$!!! BELIEVE IT!!!

More to follow as my typing improves.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/skelly43/DSC00156-small.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/skelly43/DSC00155-small.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/skelly43/DSC00161-small.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/skelly43/DSC00162-small.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/skelly43/Satcurves.jpg

[cra1g]

Holy Crap! Glad you're (mostly) OK--looks like it could have been a LOT worse!

[WoodWorks]

Damn! I shat my pants just reading about it. Very glad that you made it, even if you and your bike are damaged. If I ever needed reinforcement for my ATTGATT habit, you just gave it to me. In Spades! :shock:

[water warrior]

Berserker, really glad you lived to tell the tale. Hopefully you will recover with no permanent after effects and be riding again. Another big + for ATGATT.

[mirage]

That was a close one! Glad everyone made it out alive. I can appreciate the situation and decision to laydown the bike, though mine was not nearly the cruising speeds you guys were probably going at. Any guesses on how the insurance is going to work out? Is there a brand new bike in you're future?

Take care and heal up quick.

Mirage...

[MJStromer]

My God Mark I'm glad to see that your ok besides the arm it didn't look like you had any where to go with a rock wall on the left a guard rail on your right and a out of control car straight ahead man that could have been a lot worse hope to see you at the beakfast club soon keep use updated.

[Raevyn]

Looks like the best that could happen did. Glad to see that you are for the most part doing good. Nice to see that you kept your cool. Alot of people would have lost there head and froze there. Hope to see you at breakfest soon.

[Mr. Fisherman]

Well done Mark! Let me know if you need anything at all, including taking the truck to get your bike or your salvage.
Very glad you are ok and that we'll be sharing another ride together soon.
Hope the mom and baby are ok and that their insurance has deep pockets. Looks like your equipment really did the job it was designed for.
Good on you Doug for lending the assist. Another reason to pair up out there...

[Fatstrat]

Glad you are alright too!
My experience from my accident was that much of the details of what actually happened came more clear to me over time. It was odd, but it seemed at once over in an instant yet still felt slow motion. I know it sounds strange but maybe you can relate.
As an aside, all respect to ya Doug but poping in with a one sentence post like that to start the thread had me, and probably others thinking we lost someone. Not a nice feeling for a while!:(
On the other hand, it's a good way to get and keep someones attention!:D

[mcdstrom]

Wow. Glad your OK (considering what could have happened). As I was riding last weekend, I repeatedly tried to think what I would do if somebody suddenly crossed into my lane. Consciously, I couldn't think quickly enough to handle my simulations. I'm hoping that if the real thing does occur, as it happened for you this week, that I can choose and act nearly automatically. Take care and heal quickly.

[Berserker]

for all the nice comments. It's terrifying to see that scenario unfold in front of you.

As for the bike, one way or another I'll be back on two wheels once the arm is recovered. Just getting into the insurance process and it will be a few days untill I know whether it'll get repaired or totaled.

Will be a breakfast tomorrow, on 4 wheela though!

[BWeeks]

Good god, I am sooo glad you are ok. I am glad your gear did its job. The damage to the cars in the picture shows that this was no fenderbender and to walk away with just a broken arm. Gald you are ok, the bike can be fixed.

[bigpapa]

Mark, what a surprise! Checked the board when I got in today and saw the pictures. Glad you are OK. I hope the insurance types take care of you and the bike. Get well soon.

[traskrover]

whats ATTGATT?

[FireMedicATL]

want to sell the bags and crash bars?

eh eh?

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:



But seriously.

[Nighthawk22]

Mark, just got back on line after getting back from HCMR. Wow, Doug's post has been bugging me all weekend. Glad your near-death experiance came out in your favor! I have the next couple of days off (Tue & Wed). Let me know if you need help with anything.

I've been through the broken right arm thing. Don't overdo it, I did and had to have it rebroken and plated.

We'll miss riding with you, but you can eat bacon with your left, so I hope to see you at Breakfast.

Doug, great pictures. It's hard to remember to document events like this, but they will be valuable for insurance and memories.

[Berserker]

the nice comments! Good friends are a rare commodity!

Got into the Fracture Doc today and all looks good. Simple spiral break that if I take it easy won't need surgery to repair. My whole arm and shoulder are bruised so the doc was surprised my arm was all that was damaged. 6 weeks with weekly check-ups ahead.

The Strom appears to be repairable, so shouldn't be too long until things get underway.

Thank's again for your kind comments!

[Media Weasel]

Taking the least deadly of the 3 choices I laid the Strom over,

Every time I read that phrase, or hear it, it comes out "I didn't have enough skill/confidence in fundamental brake-and-avoid techniques, so I panicked and crashed when I probably didn't have to."

A bike sliding on its side does not stop as quickly as a bike on its wheels with the brakes on. Period, full stop, basic physics. And, once a bike is on its side, you can't steer it either, something that you can do when it's on its wheels. Ergo, you opted to put your bike horizontal because you didn't have confidence in other (read better) options or you had insufficient bike-handling skill.

This "I had to lay it down" twaddle is a leftover from the macho Harley cruiser crowd, and is so fallacious it ain't funny.

Perpetuating the "I had to lay it down" myth, when modern bikes can stop and swerve on a dime, only gives newer and inexperienced riders the wrong idea, rather than spurring them to do what they SHOULD be doing, which is honing their emergency avoidance techniques.

Yeah, it sucks that you hurt yourself, but don't blame anyone but yourself for spilling the bike.

And I hope that no lawyers see this, especially ones from your insurance company.

[Mr. Fisherman]

I'm gonna deal with the post above later...

Mark, Don't let the"Weasle" get you down. Opinions are like spenctors...
Leaving it at that for now.

[Berserker]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be.

I hope for Weasel's sake she never learns the reality of being a Monday morning quarterback.

[BWeeks]

Well, I do have to put in my 2 cents. I have riden with Mark and "lack of skill" is not anything I would use to decribe his riding.

[cra1g]

Following Doug's Ghandi-like example, I'm removing my earlier comments in the interest of civility. :)

[Doug-in-Skamania]

Removed my post to keep the board civil........

[Fatstrat]

I would like to make a humble suggestion before we start a big pissing match over this issue.
No one will ever be able to fully understand exactly what Mark experienced at the split second he had to decide so an argument is really moot. Based on results I am going to offer that he made the right decision.
For the sake of becoming a better/safer rider, I would hope that we all get the chance to learn as much as we can from his experience. This is such a great forum I'd like to think we can get something positive out of the comments even though we may disagree with them and they were as subtle as a 12lb maul.
Lesser riders may have ended up on a stainless steel table somewhere after this kind of event. Credit where credit is due IMHO.

As an aside, I am curious if the insurance company will view this as a single vehicle accident from Marks point since he did not contact the other vehicles or if there will be liability on the other drivers part for creating the conditions that led to his crash.

[Berserker]

I am a victim of the biased media!

Friends, as much as I appreciate the comments they really only feed the ego of someone like Vern!

Clearly he has some issues...I wasn't there but I can tell you what happened!

IMHO of course! :p

It's a beautiful day out there, GO FOR A RIDE! (carefully please!)

[Media Weasel]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be.

I hope for Weasel's sake he never learns the reality of being a Monday morning quarterback.

So, you're going to try to convince me the surrending a bike to the laws of inertia and physics (ie intentionally dropping it so it slides in a forward direction) rather than controlling it using steering and brakes is somehow better?

Since when is surrending control of a bike -letting it the pavement - going to produce better stopping and steering options than staying in the seat?

When you can show me demonstrable physics that says a bike slows faster sliding on its side, and that its operator has more control over direction (steering) when the bike is bouncing down the road without a rider than when it's on its wheels - then I'll believe that "Laying it down" makes sense.
Until then, I stick with my point. You may not like it, but it's based on fact, not emotion.

I find the lack of acceptance in the rider's critical role in his fate somewhat alarming. In fact, not one poster has yet pointed out the originail declaration of responsibility in the phrase "was riding about 100+ feet behind..." well, 30 yards at highway speeds, especially on the curvy road show in the images is not sufficient brake-and-avoid space. [In fact, a bit of advice to the original poster: edit that reference out of your post immediately, lest the insurance company lawyer get at it.]

[cra1g]

So, you're going to try to convince me the surrending a bike to the laws of inertia and physics (ie intentionally dropping it so it slides in a forward direction) rather than controlling it using steering and brakes is somehow better?

I don't think anybody's trying to convince you of anything. Thanks for stoppin' by, though!

[Raevyn]

Media while I have to agree that staying on the bike is the best method for both stopping and control. The option of dropping it is still valid. Has I have personally done a head on into the side of a car at highway speed I can tell you that I wish I had dropped it. It would have saved me from doing an impression of superman learning to fly for the first time. Head over heel is not condusive to keeping your lunch. If I could have dropped and kicked off I may have been much less hurt. I was lucky I could have snapped my neck on the landing. There are times when dropping the bike are less painfull for the rider then for the bike. Riding it out and trying to evade where another car could bounce any second could cause YOU more damage then sliding. While I know that no one wants to have there bike dropped and sliding. Better that the bike takes the damage then the rider.

Just my two cents.

[water warrior]

This is a case of "You Had To Be There". Let's just be thankful there was a Guardian Angel close by.

[Mr. Fisherman]

Alrighty then Vern.... I for one have heard enough of your opinion regarding this topic and would ask you to keep it to yourself. Enough is enough.

Where is a good editor when you need one? :rolleyes:

[NW Strom]

Mark,
So sorry to hear about your mis-hap. I hope you recover quickly. Thank goodness for the safety gear you had on and crash bars for your bike. Take care let me know if I can be of any help. Steve (Vancouver Wa.)

[MCRIDER007]

So, you're going to try to convince me the surrending a bike to the laws of inertia and physics (ie intentionally dropping it so it slides in a forward direction) rather than controlling it using steering and brakes is somehow better?

Since when is surrending control of a bike -letting it the pavement - going to produce better stopping and steering options than staying in the seat?

When you can show me demonstrable physics that says a bike slows faster sliding on its side, and that its operator has more control over direction (steering) when the bike is bouncing down the road without a rider than when it's on its wheels - then I'll believe that "Laying it down" makes sense.
Until then, I stick with my point. You may not like it, but it's based on fact, not emotion.



I don't have any experience with laying a bike down -- on purpose -- but everything I have ever read supports Media's statements. I would think that if one were to lay down a bike to avoid a vehicle approaching from the left, then you would want to lay the bike on its right side rather than leaning the bike into the oncoming vehicle to initiate a laydown -- as it appears is what happened in this accident.

But since I don't have any experience is laying a bike down, can anyone explain the technique? I would assume that you lean in one direction, lock the rear brake, and then fall down in the direction you are leaning -- because that is the way you do it in a panic stop when you lock the rear brake while the bike is in anything other than a upright position.

If there is a different technique for laying a bike down, please explain it.

[VtSTROM-K5]

Since when is surrending control of a bike -letting it the pavement - going to produce better stopping and steering options than staying in the seat?

I find the lack of acceptance in the rider's critical role in his fate somewhat alarming. In fact, not one poster has yet pointed out the originail declaration of responsibility in the phrase "was riding about 100+ feet behind..." well, 30 yards at highway speeds, especially on the curvy road show in the images is not sufficient brake-and-avoid space. [In fact, a bit of advice to the original poster: edit that reference out of your post immediately, lest the insurance company lawyer get at it.]

Just My 0.02$.... But I do Not see anything that said he was Laying the bike down for "Better Control & Steering"..:confused: ,Or that his speed was such that he was Flying down the Hwy. So, could 100+/ft. possibly be any amount over 100? :???: . Also, In the defense of Berserker, HE opted to sacrifice his Motorcycle to avert a possible fatalality..To that I say, Right move !!!
Suzuki builds Motorcycles "Every Damn Day" .. & The bike is a non- issue in the survival of a rider. But I wasn't there...SO. AS I said Just My 0.02$...;)
Now for the REAL news.....
Berserker, I'm glad you were not seriously hurt . I also hope the Woman & her child are recovering?! Follow your Doctors advice & do the physical rehab. It works wonders ;) Speedy Recovery, 'trooper :mrgreen:

[Nighthawk22]

Speaking of being troublesome limbs, Hey Ray(Mr. Fisherman), how's the knee? Haven't gotten an update since we left for Reno. You up and around? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Berserker]

Well it looks like I'll be picking up the re-constructed Strom this weekend. Since I've never owned a Hardley, it'll be the first time I've had to trailer a bike. Ugh.

My arm is about 60% healed, the cast came off yesterday and I'm wearing a bi-valve temporary splint. I've got to be very careful but it makes it a heck of a lot easier to take a shower! I am under severe penalty of pain (from the SO) should I try to ride the Strom before I am cleared by the bone Doc. Something about trying to ride the Strom with 2 broken arms...She's never put her foot down on anything before...hmmm?

Looks like my accident is going to be "No-fault" since I didn't actually hit or got hit by anyone, so my insurance is paying the bill for my loss. American Family has been dragging their feet on pretty much everything, but more on that later.

If I may offer ONE MAJOR POINT OF ADVICE...

Many motorcycle insurance policies don't include medical coverage for your injuries. I assumed it did, my car policies do. I'm fortunate in that my personal health insurance has a clause that they will pay but must be reimbursed if I collect payment for medical costs from another party. MOST PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE DOESN'T COVER motor vehicle accidents. CHECK YOUR MOTORCYCLE POLICY AND WITH YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANY!!! If you're not insured you can really get stung. I also joined the Life Flight Network, $50 a year and they cover any air ambulance costs not reimbursed by insurance. Given that air ambulance costs can be 5 or 6 figures this is money well spent.

I also learned that some doctor's won't see patients from motor vehicle accidents. My personal physician of 3 years refused to see me, clinic policy- no MVA patients.

I'll update things from time to time as they progress.

As a side note-I received a letter from the State of Oregon last week noting that there had been a dramatic increase in motorcycle accidents this year over last. It mentioned wearing the proper equipment and taking a Team Oregon refresher course. I already do the ATGATT thing, and will be signing up for the refresher course once I'm back riding. My point being be extreemly careful out there!

I appreciate all the kind comments from the board and Breakfast Club members, but I'd like to extend a personal note of thanks to a long time riding buddy...Doug (aka Doug-In-Skamania). Without his help, this ordeal would have been much more difficult. A great friend.

[stevewz]

I'm a motorcycle newbie, with only about 6,000 miles under my belt on two wheels, so I'm far more a listener than a speaker when it comes to proper technique and all that. I started my motorcycle career (yes, I intend to ride until I need a walker just to get to the bathroom across the hall ;-) by taking the MSF Basic Rider Course last fall.

Here's where I'm confused about the remarkably heated discussion about the proper way to handle the aforementioned accident (lay it down vs. stay on it and maneauver/brake). During my MSF course, the instructors were very adamant that there are NO circumstances where intentionally laying your bike down is a good idea. Even comparing braking vs. swerving, they pointed out that you can swerve out of the way in half the time that you could brake when confronted with an obstacle in the road.

That's why I'm so confused by all this. Go back and read some threads about whether to wear a full-face helmet or not, or which bike is better, or whatever. They don't even come close to being as heated as this thread has been. I was shocked to read some of your responses.

If the instructors that teach MSF are so strongly opposed to using "laying it down" as a reactive technique, why are so many people so adamant that it IS an appropriate technique in certain situations?

When I read Weasel's post about staying upright and using your brakes and swerving out of the way, that you could stop much shorter than by laying the bike down, I thought, "That makes sense to me. Physically, I bet the bike and rider can stop much quicker than by laying it down." Once you lay the bike down, you've entirely given up control of the situation. Inertia is the only thing remaining.

Then I read the follow-ups that sounded like they wanted to tear that poster's head off for even suggesting such blasphemy.

So far I've not read a single post by anyone that explains why laying the bike down is better than maintaining control over the bike and hard-braking/steering the bike out of harm's way. I've not even read an explanation of "how" to lay the bike down.

For the sake of a riding newbie, I'm all ears and open minded about this, so please explain to me why laying the bike down is the best choice in that situation. This isn't flame bait, it's an honest question to hear the opposing opinion.

One caveat/point ... yes, I know, there will always be some rare circumstance when an otherwise frowned-upon maneuver is actually the best thing to do. My question has to do with general practices, not exceptions.

---

One final question about insurance. Does your motorcycle insurance cover the replacement cost of your helmet and clothes and gear?

[Berserker]

Steve, since there is pending litigation on this accident it is difficult to answer your question here. The next time you come to a PDX Breakfast, if you want to know the dynamic of the accident just ask.

What I will say is that anyone can have an opinion on any subject. In this case my opinion is that if a rider thinks they could have avoided the vehicles, the flying debris, and make a controlled stop, then good luck to them.

By Weasel preaching a conclusion like he/she lived through it, without knowing all the facts is just an uninformed opinion that was creating negativity. I think that's what others may have been reacting to.

[stevewz]

Berserker, it's important to note that my question is a somewhat generic one, and not about your particular accident. There's no way in hell I would second guess the way you reacted to the events that unfolded in split seconds before you. The fact that you were able to survive the situation with only a broken arm is proof enough for me that whatever you did was probably right for the situation.

I'm seeking to understand why laying a bike down seems to be considered a standard response in an accident, instead of an extremely rare response to be avoided at all costs according to MSF instructors. I did a quick Google search on "why lay bike down" and a few other permutations, most of which were forum posts/threads, and it seems the consensus is this:

a) Those that are the most vocal about it on the "pro" side seem to have done so at some point in the past.

b) Those that are the most vocal about it on the "con" side seem to have never had it happen.

Further...

c) I can't seem to find anyone that teaches riding for a living that says laying your bike down is a valid technique.

Again, Berserker or anyone else that's laid their bike down and lived to tell the tale, I'm not attacking or even referencing any one particular situation. Every situation is unique. But as I learn more about riding a motorcycle, both through my own experience and any training I undertake, I want to know what techniques I should be focusing on and which ones I want to avoid. I'm trying to find out if laying my bike down is something I should attempt to learn or should I focus on my braking and quick-swerve maneuvers to avoid that scenario.

[BWeeks]

When I took the Team Oregon class they taught that you should never lay the bike down, yes. They also taught that you should always leave yourself an escape route to swerve/brake to. Now let’s visit the real world. Sometime there just is no escape route, i.e., car in front of you, car coming at you and a cliff/river/stone wall to the right, leaving you no place to swerve. Do you swerve into the on coming lane and hope to miss the spinning car coming at you at 60, slam into the car that has come to a sudden stop in front of you, swerve off the cliff to the right sitting on the back of a 500 lbs bike, or lay it down and try to slide your body between the car and guard? There is no right answer here.

In Marks case, laying it down worked because all he got was a broken arm. Different rider, different scenario, who knows. I could get into the whole Chaos theory here but that would take too much time.

As to finding someone who teaches you to lay the bike down, never happen. Team Oregon or anyone else will never tell you to lay down the bike because of liability reasons

All I know is when the S*&T hits the fan you have to do something, the worst is to freeze up and do nothing. Keep your skills sharp and hope the gods of fate are not feeling the need to mess with you.

Keep the rubber down.

[Berserker]

I met a CHP motor officer under less than favorable circumstances (speeding ticket on my Honda 750) while travelling through California in 1977. We got to talking bikes, one of things he mentioned was being trained on laying a bike down and how to live through the slide, get on your back, sliding feet first. Similar to white water rafting and you get tossed into the river. His comments have stuck with me since.

Steve your and BWeeks comments are right on.

Hey where's my strawberry's??? ;)

[stevewz]

Again, I'm not trying to be contentious, I'm merely trying to figure things out. Giving this a lot of thought, I can see a few circumstances where laying your bike down might be advantageous:

1. When you want your bike to remain between you and some other obstacle, acting as a shield, such as a barbed wire fence. No sense in cheese slicing yourself in half! :-)

2. When approaching a semi trailer broad-side. Do it Hollywood style and avoid that messy decapitation! :-)

3. When the bike low-sides on you without your permission. Then you can get up, dust yourself off, and tell your friends, "I meant to do that!" :-)

Now, here are my thoughts on when you don't want to lay your bike down...

1. When merely stopping is adequate; rubber on the road will stop far quicker than your bike on its side sliding on asphalt.

2. When you can swerve to the side and straighten out again when something low profile is laying on the road (roadkill, pot hole, blown re-tread, box of nails, etc.). This technique is covered in the MSF course.

3. When hitting the obstacle head-on is actually preferable, such as a deer or other small animal. I've read that your odds of surviving hitting a deer square on (thus splitting the animal in half) and maintaining a more or less straight ahead path of travel are better than swerving uncontrollably (that's key) or braking so hard you lock up your tires. Granted, this is a weird scenario, but I actually saw video of a guy zooming around a sweeping right-hand corner and hitting a deer broadside. The deer literally split in half (ick!) and the guy was able to stay on his bike and brake to a stop. (In the video, the deer appeared in front of him so fast he didn't really have any time to do anything BUT hit the deer).

Re: the liability issue of teaching low-siding a bike...

Why would an MSF instructor choose to NOT teach you how to low-side a bike for liability reasons? Everything about riding a motorcycle involves some kind of liability or risk to yourself, your bike, or others. I'm sure there's not an instructor out there that would disagree with sacrificing your bike in order to save your life given that kind of choice. My MSF instructors said very specifically that low-siding your bike is NOT an option, insisting that hard braking or swerving will always be a better option. Those were damn near their exact words, verbatim.

However, again, there will always be exceptions when low-siding your bike is the best move, but as I think more and more about it, I'm drawing the conclusion that those circumstances would be very rare. Berserker, your description of what happened seems to qualify (to me) as one of those circumstances. The fact that you walked away bares that to be true.

Personally, I'm going to focus on practicing my fast-stop and quick-swerve maneuvers so that when something does come up, it becomes instinct rather than thought-action. It's really not much different than learning to block a punch or kick in martial arts. If you practice it enough, your body gets used to what needs to happen in each situation and simply does it. No need to really think about it because it has become automatic.

But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where cagers do stupid things and like to cross into our lane and cut left in front of us at intersections. We live in a world where deer run out in front of us and semi's have their tire re-treads explode at 70 mph on the Interstate.

We live in a world where we take certain risks for the sake of enjoying the ride and experience. Second-guessing what happened to one of our brethren is a waste of oxygen. What matters is you walked away to ride again another day. Hopefully we all learn from what happened and, if nothing else, gain a little more alertness to what might happen as we roll down the road.

[Doug-in-Skamania]

Having seen someone hit a deer on a bike, and having seen the results of friends who have hit deer, my opinion is to avoid it if at all possible (duh). I've never seen someone lucky enough to "slice through" a deer with minimal damage. Usually it causes severe damage, a total to the bike, cartwheels, and several months of rehab.

Remember Connie (f6gal) Mark? It totalled out her 850 lb. Valkyrie, and messed her up a bit. A friend of mine hit one last fall, and totalled his bike, broke his leg in 7 places, and broke his shoulder blade (when he flipped off the bike and landed on his shoulder). He's still going to physical therapy twice a week. Forest rats are a constant threat.

In my opinion (and that's what matters to me), the MSF instructor that told you that was incorrect. There actually may be instances when laying the bike down is the preferred aternative. As would be the case when there is no "out", too short a distance to brake, and the only other alternative would be to hit a guardrail and possibly eject over. I've personally had to lay a road bike down once, and in my opinion it saved my bacon. Bikes can be replaced.... I can't (some may argue it's not much of a choice) :rolleyes: But, as you said, those occassions are very rare, yet no less valid.

I consider myself experienced at riding, as in the last 35 years I've owned 7 dirt bikes, raced motocross, and owned 14 road bikes logging at least 400,000 miles. And what happens in the split-second before an impending accident is based upon skill and survival instinct. No time to think it through. Whether you walk away from it or not is based upon the riders skill and experience (and good Karma). Kudos to Mark for sustaining as little damage as he did, and end up with a repairable bike. And Kudos to him for being a gentleman during the attacks and nay-sayers.

I think it's time this thread gets laid to rest.

[Fatstrat]

IMVHO, I think this thread needs to continue. But not as dissecting Marks accident. I think most of us see that he obviously made a good decision based on results. I also think that Mark would be glad if others would benefit in a positive way from his experience. What myself and others have read here today, might actually help save our lives tomorrow.
I think that discussions like this are of the highest value on this forum. Safety really is the number one issue among all of us I think, and a discussion like this is really going to create some good hard thinking about what we should do in a given situation.
I have already learned a great deal from Doug, Mark and Steve and considered dangerous situations from different perspectives because of all of your contributions. I feel I am already a better rider because of this thread.
I humbly suggest we maintain the dialogue.
Oh yea, and crank up the cow bell!!!
:-D

[stevewz]

When flying, the first and last rule is, "Let your landings equal your take-offs."

I agree with Fatstrat that the discussion about safety and proper technique is valuable (and perhaps deserving it's own thread) regardless of Berserker's particular situation.

What the rest of us gain from Berserker's unfortunate circumstance is the opportunity to learn from someone else's "what if" scenario. It plants a seed in our brains that aids us, even if only the slightest bit, when something even remotely similar happens to us. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I fully admit that I have next to zero experience on a bike, especially compared to many of y'all with six figure mile tallies under your belt, and I gain tremendous value by reading what you post every time I read this forum because of your experience and willingness to share it with newbies like myself.

When I read about Berserker's situation it makes me even more aware than I already am that things not only can but do happen that can put my life at risk. I'm finding more and more respect within myself for the responsibility I have for my own safety every time I roll out of the driveway. The MSF instructors really had a damn good point when they said, "The single most important piece of safety gear you have available to you is your own brain."

Reading forums -- and more specifically, this thread -- do nothing but add to the capacity of our brains to be even more effective in that capacity. No matter how many asshats there are out there just itching for the opportunity to run us off the road or turn us into a bright red stain on the asphalt, ultimately our safety is our own responsibility. Sometimes that even means making the decision to just stay home that particular day.

I appreciate everyone's input and feedback on this issue and I learn from it all. Thank you.

[papaduc]

If you have time to think to yourself "Should I lay my bike down?" and then make it happen you probably had enough time to stop or swerve in order to avoid the hazard. To the best of my knowldge you give up control of you and your motorcycle as soon as the tires lose traction thus reducing your ability to avoid a hazard.
It's not possible to second guess what any rider did in a pending collision situation. I have been there. I still try to figure out how I could have avoided it and there are a few things that would have worked. Also let's not forget, what took place may have been out of the riders control.
If you want to work on managing the risk of riding a motorcycle I would suggest "ATGATT", practice quick stops from normal riding speed (45-65), practice swerving (this can actually be fun) and work on recognizing hazards begining to develop around you not just in front. Will these techniques save your A$$ every time? Nope, but knowing how your motorcycle will react when you are hard on the brakes at real speeds or how much effort it takes to avoid a tire tread at 70mph are going to help, plus these are more fun to practice than laying down your beautiful "YELLOW" motorcycle.