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Water condensation in oil window

43K views 79 replies 33 participants last post by  spidrgr 
#1 ·
I typically ride through the winter, when possible, and this fall has been typically cool and damp, so moisture getting in places I don't want it is expected. The other day I noticed a significant buildup of foamy yellowish- white crap on the oil level window. I did a quick oil change (didn't change the filter), using some Suzuki motorcycle oil I had leftover. Then I rode around for an hour, and saw that the gunk had burned off. So I figured the problem was solved. But today I rode to work, which is about 15 miles of mostly freeway, and when I inspected the window after parking, I noticed a bit of gunk beginning to accumulate there again.:headbang:

I'm in the Seattle area. It's been around 50 degrees F, with a lot of rain or plain old dampness. The bike is kept in my garage at home, and sits under a carport sort of thing when I'm at work.

So what I'm seeing IS water in the oil, right? What can I do to make it more permanently go away? My understanding is that it can eventually damage bearings, etc. Should I be worried about a leak anywhere? Several months ago I was riding in the rain, and noticed some steam (I'm pretty sure it was steam, and not smoke), coming off the radiator. But I was never able to pinpoint it or reproduce it, so I ignored it.

Any good solutions out there?
 
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#34 ·
Ran mine for 5-6 minutes in the 45 deg F garage to listen to the new pipe. Sounds great of course. Looked in oil window and saw the condensation build up. This engine runs pretty cool so me thinks a long run or warmer temps would help eleviate the situation. :yesnod:
 
#35 ·
condensation in oil window

I just got my bike back from the dealer for the second time in a month for the exact same reason. I was worried about water/antifreeze in the oil but they checked for leaks several times and no leaks. changed the brand new oil and for the second time and both times it was fine. No gunk under the oil cap either so I think it is condensation. oil level and antifreeze level is perfect. I will ride the bike as weather in NJ permits and see what happens.
 
#36 ·
Same thing

Mine does the same thing. After 7k miles and a few oil changes I just assumed it was fine. Coolant levels are good and there is never any sign of contamination when I change the oil. Nothing on the filler cap or anything else. My last bike didn't have a window, just a mini dip stick. I figure they just put that there to make us all paranoid! :yikes: :yesnod:
 
#42 ·
Re: Seafoam. It's been a few years since I was monitoring a site that is devoted to used oil analysis, but, at that time, the Tribologists were cautioning over-use of Seafoam specifically, and many other "harsh" cleaners. They were recommending flushing the oil very soon (one short ride) after adding it to a crankcase. There were many other cleaners that they recommended, most of them were heavy in Ester content...and those were deemed much safer to use in crankcases. Same recommendation for heavy fuel-tank use, as it can contaminate the crankcase oil from blow-by, and break down the crankcase oil chemistry. FWIW.

OK, the real reason I looked up this thread:

I had the thick, milky deposits on my sightglass on a 2012 DL650, which only has a couple-hundred miles on it. I've been riding it 20-30 minutes at a time, much of that on the Interstate at 65-80 mph (indicated). I thought that was long enough to get the oil hot enough to drive out any water vapor. I guess I was wrong. :confused:

So, today, the temps finally got into the 40's, and it took about 75 miles of interstate riding to clear the film from the glass. At 95 miles, I made it back home (BTW, I couldn't be more pleased with how this bike performs!), washed the salt and grime off of it, dried it off the best I could, and pushed it into the garage. An hour later, I looked, and sure enough...the glass was already fogged! It wasn't a thick, milky deposit yet, though.

I put a lit 60 watt lightbulb near the glass, removed the oil filler cap, and the fog was gone when I came back and checked it in about an hour. I turned the light bulb off, and put the filler cap back on. It's been a couple of hours since then in a 39-40 degree garage, and the glass is still sparking clear.

What I think is happening is when the bike is on the side-stand, the glass is above the oil level. ANY moisture that is in the "crankcase air" will tend to condense on the coolest surface. That sight-glass cools faster than the metal cases, so, the sight-glass is the obvious place upon which this moisture will condense. The light bulb warmed the glass enough to evaporate that moisture off of it. I wouldn't be shocked if there is some condensation back on the sight-glass tomorrow morning.

I would also think that putting the bike on a centerstand will keep this from happening, as the relatively warm oil level in contact with the sight-glass will keep the glass tempurature from dropping significantly relative the rest of the crankcase as the entire engine slowly cools. Anyone out there with a centerstand, that has had this condensation occur while using a side stand, care to test out this hypothesis?
 
#43 ·
I have the Suzuki center stand and it tilts towards the sight glass side slightly. While on stand the oil level is above the site glass. I ride in all temps. It has been 33 lows to mid 40's highs here (Oregon) I have slight fog when I tilt it on side stand. very slight.
 
#44 · (Edited)
So, are you saying that the sight glass fogs a bit even after it has sat cooling for hours on the center stand in a cold ambient environment, where the oil level essentially covers the glass the entire time during the cooling? If that's what you are saying, and if others report the same thing, that proves my theory is wrong.

If that isn't what you are saying, and if others report no fogging when the oil level remains high on the glass during cooling, there is still a chance my theory is valid.

Anyone else care to add a data point?

BTW, the glass remains crystal clear this morning...
 
#45 ·
Yes, that is what I am saying. I always park the bike on the center stand and still have small amount of fog on lens at this time. To see the condensation you do have to tilt the bike to the left to lower the oil level in the glass, but it is still there.Also have the froth on the fill cap slightly.
 
#46 ·
I concur with Fastmag

I have been parking the bike on the centerstand at work, in a heated room to try to clear the sight glass. Even with hot oil (35 minutes on the freeway) it still doesn't go away completely but a bit does go away. Parking at home on the kickstand, outside, overnight makes the glass completely clouded and the cycle continues.

After a good long ride, the residue goes away on the fill cap, but the glass remains a bit fogged.

I initially worried about it and changed my oil immediately. The oil looked fine, no signs of contamination and it seems to be pretty much aesthetic only.

Here is a picture on the side stand with hot oil for reference.

-Kevin
 

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#49 ·
It makes sense if your switch coincided with the temperature dropping! Otherwise, like you say, it doesn't make sense to me, either.

Looks like we're not going to get enough data points to make a determination on anything here.

Oh, well; I know enough to know that things you think you know you may not know as well as you thought you knew them, because after all, you don't know what you don't know. Ya know?
 
#52 ·
Well, now MY Data point is wonky. I did my usual ride of about an hour, mostly freeway speeds, parked the bike on the sidestand in a garage of about 39 F, and NO condensation was seen on the sight glass hours later.

The only thing that would fit with my theory is: I had not ridden the bike enough to allow for complete evaporation of all residual water after my FIRST ride to remove the milky deposits from the sight glass, so, although the deposits were gone after this deposit-removing ride, there was still some water vapor in the crankcase, which was then seen condensing on the glass. This SECOND ride, since I had less water in the crankcase than the first ride (there were no milky deposits present when I cranked it up), I rode it sufficiently to get it good and warm, and therefore there was no residual water in the crankcase to condense on the glass.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for this milky deposit to occur when the bike is in a cold climate, and not ridden long enough to really get rid of all the water vapor. It's not indicative of a coolant leak, it's not something Suzuki Dealership needs to address. The oil just needs to get really warmed up more often.
 
#53 ·
Kudos

Anyway, it's not uncommon for this milky deposit to occur when the bike is in a cold climate, and not ridden long enough to really get rid of all the water vapor. It's not indicative of a coolant leak, it's not something Suzuki Dealership needs to address. The oil just needs to get really warmed up more often.
...that could be true... I get the bike to 1 bar before I put up the side stand in the AM...winter it takes longer since the bike is stored outside .. I use that time to get the grip heaters going so I can have some warmth on the grips by time I hit the highway and kick them to the high setting....also helps the battery to recover some from the initial startup ... my commute is about 15 miles on the slab each morning and when I get to the parking garage the grip heaters are off and the battery is again allowed to recover a touch to 13.6 before I key off... ritual its repeated when my work day is over...

I never done frequent short milk-runs so maybe that is why I never seen the creaminess... if that is truly just a result of condensation buildup I will definitely ensure I keep that sort of riding to a minimum if ever
 
#54 ·
Foggy oil window

I purchased a new 12 vtrom650adv at the end of dec. After riding it a few time to work in the low 20's in the morning I decided to check the oil and found the same milky looking window as everyone. I work at a suzuki dealer so I called the tech line and spoke to someone to inform him of the issue i was having. He said that he had not heard of anyone having this problem...I told him that I have been reading a lot of complaints about this problems on the forums. He told me to do a coolant pressure test, a oil pressure test and a compression test.

My boss told me just to start it up and let it run at idle for a few minutes to let it warm up and see what happens. I let it run for close to 20 minutes and the foggy site glass cleared up.

I have a 1/2 commute to work and I thought that it warm up enough not to do that but I guess not. I will learn to just let it idle a little bit when I get ready to shut it off for a while.
 
#59 ·
Mine had some fog in the sight glass today for the first time. I usually do long rides but today I washed it then started it up and idled it for a few minutes and sure enough the glass had a milky substance on it. I really don't think it will cause any problems.
 
#62 ·
I have a 2012 with 1200 miles on it. I usually ride 20 or so minutes every morning to work. I checked my sight glass and I saw this:



I was really concerned about this. I really didn't feel like this was normal for a bike with so few miles on it. I changed my original oil at 200miles. So I popped the cap off and inside the crankcase is this mayonnaise. Wtf??!



This cannot be good for the engine. Out of curiosity I started it with the cap off to try and vent off any condensation and I was really surprised by how pressurized the case gets. I had blasts of air coming out with each compression stroke. Is this normal? Also shouldn't there be a crankcase vent to the intake to help equalize any blow by past the rings? Do I have a dud from the factory?
 
#64 ·
To and from work most days. They aren't super short trips, maybe 10 miles. I just called a friend of mine who also has a 2012 strom and he rides the Seattle commute about 30 miles and his sight glass had that same milky looking film in there. We both bought our bikes from the same dealer near the same time too.
 
#68 ·
GtiKyle,

I had the exact same thing happen earlier this winter and caused by the exact same reasons. Your photos tell my story perfectly. I freaked out, thinking there may be coolant in the oil, drained the oil which looked fine. I think all of this really is your bike telling you that you aren't riding it enough. While my daily commute is only about 9 miles one way there are times I travel to Baltimore from NC for work (about 380 miles). Not long after I saw this I went to Baltimore and it was all completely cleared up by the time I got up there. And all of this has repeated itself several times since then. It doesn't seem like it takes very many days of just daily commuting for the condensation to build up but the next time you get a long trip in it all goes away.
 
#70 ·
In my previous life, before return to school, i worked in automobile service station. I saw often that kind of sludge in the oil filler cap, but when draining the oil for an oil change, that oil always seemed normal.
Probably the same here, is anyone ever saw that kind of sludge getting out of drain plug while changing the oil?
 
#73 · (Edited)
I did plenty of this looking into Idle Hammer symptoms, cause and remedy. Nasty noise at idle in early 1000 engines when hot through.

Our engine oil is over cooled in winter. Slightly under cooled in summer. On a cold day it seldom gets much above half that of your water temperature. Not enough to get rid of the moisture the oil and air above it will accumulate. I used an infra red thermometer measuring temperature at oil cooler inlet and outlet. Oil gallery plugs and sump temperatures at the same points and different stages of the heat cycle.

The oil cooler on the front of the engine does not a have a thermostat so the oil runs full bore all winter and summer. Has a very small bypass jet oil side that seems more about clearing air pockets and priming the cooler and filter rather than any real capacity. Not noticed how its plumbed into the water jacket but probably full bore there too so always as hot as the water is. Problem is its such a small oil flow and a minute surface for the heat exchange.

Other problem is the sump gets a good cool breeze as you ride. The engines water jacket stops at the bottom of the cylinders so no significant warming of the oil other than when it runs up to the heads and sprays on the underside of the piston crowns. Best fix would be a tea cozy to insulate the sump in winter. Covering the water radiator is little use and risks a boil up if you suddenly have to work the engine hard and then go slowly straigh after. Covering the grill on a car was good as it kept the under hood temperature up a bit. We used to build draught deflectors to keep cold air off the worst affected parts of some engines in early UK built GM cars. Rocker cover particularly bad.

In bad cases that milky emulsion mix of oil and water will also build up in the engine breather pipe and sometimes nearly block it. That makes the build up in the sump worse.

Leakage from the water pump seal into your oil is not going to happen. There is a little drain (bright steel pipe with 90 degree bend centre picture) lets any water that leaks past the seal out to the small black rubber tube that drops down in front of the pump past the end of your starter motor.

Favourite place for a water to oil leak would be where someone removed the clutch cover and either used the old gasket or never cleaned the surface up well enough for the new gasket. Front and rear cylinders have a water way through the cover to get to the pump. Quality gasket is essential. Original Suzuki are only just good for one use.

Our oil windows are on the exposed front corner of the engine so get the cold in winter. And right where the engine breather passes by but does not ventilate so there is a cooling effect inside the case as the cold atmosphere is drawn in and blown out by the pumping action of the pistons. V twins displace as much air as if they were nearly the same size single. In other words the oil window has its own perfect little condenser for collecting and holding on to moisture from the blow by gasses in winter. The more efficient the engine, the more water in the blow by gas too.

See the inside of the window and how its shrouded by the case. Just behind the window is the engine breather route cast into the housing. String is average oil level. Left case has engine breather baffle fitted. Right case has it removed to show routing in the casting. These are off the 1000 engine. 650 is same layout but smaller.

Might be of interest to some - this picture is from clutch basket noise reduction investgations. Left cover is the early version. Right cover has two extra webs at the bottom which when used with the later gasket held slightly more oil against the clutch at idle. Marketing speak was sound deadening cover for later bikes. Real solution is to get your clutch idle damper fixed.

another John - but only half way Oop North in Yorkshire.
 
#74 · (Edited)
This is a 2012+ DL650 forum. Oil cooling is done by a heat exchanger behind the oil filter that allows heat the transfer between oil and coolant. The bike does not have an open radiator oil cooler like other V-Stroms. The other stuff is interesting though and may very well still apply.

 
#75 ·
Yes. It's the Gladius engine. In fact it should be more of an oil warmer in winter. Particularly on short runs in the cold. But seems like its not warming it enough for many owners engines. Designed to help the engine reach maximum efficiency sooner and stabilise oil temperature fluctuations in all seasons. A tall order for an all alloy engine sitting out in the air flow like these. Perhaps you respond before I finish editing because you perhaps read email notifications rather than whats posted in the end after being tidied up.

I wrote "The oil cooler on the front of the engine does not a have a thermostat so the oil runs full bore all winter and summer. Has a very small bypass jet oil side that seems more about clearing air pockets and priming the cooler and filter rather than any real capacity. Not noticed how its plumbed into the water jacket but probably full bore there too so always as hot as the water is. Problem is its such a small oil flow and a minute surface for the heat exchange".

Do you know if it circulates radiator or water jacket water on the water side? Former will just make the oil very cold when its cold. Later will be isolated from the radiator by the water stat when cold which is better for the oil to warm up quicker. This way the engine becomes oil cooled during warm up by heating its oil in the sump in addition to oil running over the hot bits inside. Then hands over to water cooling when all is up to temperature. Not doing this too well by owners experience though. Have Suzuki put an oil temp sender in the sump or main oil galleries yet?
 
#76 ·
Coolant circulates from the radiator through the heat exchanger then to the engine beginning when the coolant thermostat opens. Until then, it only circulates inside the engine passages. There is no oil temp sender.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Then in winter its perhaps only slightly better than the original bikes air cooled oil cooler. No wonder we get the white emulsion build up with repeated cold short runs.
Better in summer though with this heat exchanger built into the oil filter flange. Infra red heat radiated from the front exhaust down pipe won't heat up the oil in the oil cooler like before.

Yes. My tests showed the 1,000 engines oil outlet from the cooler is a degree or two warmer than the inlet while it was idling. Gets hotter and hotter and..... Cooler does cool efficiently once on the move though. But unfortunately the cooled oil is then fed through an oil gallery sunk just below the surface of the hot oil in the sump. So it's all overly hot again by the time it reaches the left main crank bearing.
 
#77 ·
Just a quick update. I did an all day ride on a 50 degree day, about 150miles. After parking it when i got home, the sight glass was clear, and the mayo was gone. I think the short trips to and from work were building on each other as far as the moisture in the oil. I just needed a good, long ride.

I'll keep telling my wife "yes, i need to ride for 200miles today, i don't want to ruin my brand new bike". :green_lol:
 
#80 ·
...50 degrees F...cold? come on, its just great riding temperature. I once saw that white foaming in the oil. It was in an old air cooled VW beetle, riding it too fast for too long at -30 degrees F. The main cause was, yes, water in the oil, but also, clogged air breather for the crank case. Clogged with ice! Probabbly caused the condensation wich then turned to water...
 
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