Agreed. One guy is clearly incapable of hijacking the thread and making it pugilistic.

Close the thread and we all lose the ability to interact in an important thread, and any additional threads where it comes up will be ruined by the same individual.

Edited to remove a quote of a attack on another member.

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Never met a dog I didn't like, a machine I couldn't break, or a woman I couldn't tick off.

Private forums are not bound to respect your free speech, legally. They can edit, erase, restrict or forbid you from saying whatever they want.

Them's the facts. Your right to free speech does exist, however, and the manner in which it does is to start your own forum and say whatever you want.

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Never met a dog I didn't like, a machine I couldn't break, or a woman I couldn't tick off.

I don't care to continue the subject because it's useless. Ask a lawyer you trust if there is such an animal.

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Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A is just getting started.
Nicknames for posting ease on my part, Vee = all DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 DL650s. Glee = 2012+ DL650s

If I invite you into my house, and you start ranting like a jackass and saying things I don't agree with, I'm within my "Constitutional rights" to tell you to STFU and GTF out and I'm not obliged to ever invite you again.

If you're in a public park ranting like a jackass and saying things I don't agree with, I have the "Constitutional right" to leave the park in search of a more jackass-free venue.

A forum is somebody's private house, NOT a public park. The fact that it's online and anyone can participate doesn't make it a public park, it makes it a really big private house party.

EDIT: Not sure what "re: newspapers" means, but newspapers have an editor who accepts and rejects items for publication. A newspaper may be free to publish whatever its EDITOR wants to, but the editor is not obliged to publish every story YOU submit. You are free to pursue publication with other newspapers, or start your own.

Let's start over and talk about clutch basket modifications!

Up until about a year ago DL 1000 owners had to buy a new basket from Suzuki for a fairly short term cure for "clutch chudder". Now we have a fix called the "shim mod" that owners can do themselves, or have others with experience with the method do it for them. Very low cost to do. We also have at least one source that takes the basket apart and fixes/improves the original design to make the basket work like new for longer than a new basket from Suzuki will last.

That is what this thread is about. I have had many owners tell me they were going to sell their Vee because of the chudder. Now they are keeping them. That is an example of how this forum should work for everyone.

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'12 DL 650- '04 DL 650- '03 DL 1000- '04 R 1150 RT

WERKS modified clutch baskets for DL and SV 1000's.
The BEST in chudder control, noise control, and lasting durability! AVAILABLE HERE: www.werksparts.com
Want straightforward easy to understand answers to clutch basket questions or concerns? E-mail Terry info@werksparts.com

Yea, the more I notice the chudder.....the more I notice the damn chudder!
I've become convinced it's simply a harmonics / feedback thing, where the springs get in sync with the power pulses of the motor, at a certain point. Changing the natural frequency of the spring (with a shim or however you want to do it), creates a situation where the engine and the spring NEVER "sync" up, thus no chudder. And.....I base this on absolutely nothing other than pure wild ass speculation


Ok, I have some questions:

1) For a first timer, how long would you estimate to get TO the clutch basket?

2) How much longer to remove it?

3) In the process, is there anything to worry about, that may sneak up on someone who has never done it, and thus create a real mess?

4) What are the exact, precise shim dimensions?

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'06 KLR650
'78 CB750
'04 DL1000

Well, I've heard that it is possible for someone who has a fair amount of experience with clutches, even when equipped with a shop manual, to install the clutch plates wrong...

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We don't rent Pigs.

There are plenty of pictures available to show the parts. You can use the online parts sources for some good pictures that will help also.

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'12 DL 650- '04 DL 650- '03 DL 1000- '04 R 1150 RT

WERKS modified clutch baskets for DL and SV 1000's.
The BEST in chudder control, noise control, and lasting durability! AVAILABLE HERE: www.werksparts.com
Want straightforward easy to understand answers to clutch basket questions or concerns? E-mail Terry info@werksparts.com

Definitely spend the money on the clutch hub tool! Here's what can happen if you try to hack mechanic the thing...

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Steve
Blue 2002 Vee (gone) now an 08 KLR

maximilian - Thats a brilliant way to put it. Your speculation is very, very close to what was also reasoned out by some on an SV forum a while back. Natural resonant frequency is the engineerng term. A certain weight/mass that is FREE to move on a spring will have a natural resonant frequency. A frequency at which it just loves to vibrate and does so readily. The actual frequency depends on the weight and the STIFFNESS of the spring. This system needs an external force to set it all off. Much the same as my wheel balance explanation earlier on will need the wheel to stike a bump. The basket is encouraged to vibrate at its resonant frequency due to engine torque pulses deflecting the springs in the torsional damper.

Increase spring stiffness = increase in natural resonant frequency.

Increase weight = reduced natural resonant fequency.

No freedom = natural resonant frequency does not show.

There are plenty of pictures circulating to support the variables in these baskets.

HUB WEAR - Wear marks point to it being the basket that vibrates and chudders. It becomes free to resonate or rattle on the hub of the gear. They don't do it when new but it starts as soon as wear in the centre hub passes a certain point. Circa 5,000miles. This wear is the point at which the basket becomes FREE enough to move.

LOOSE INNER PLATE - At the same time as the hub is loosening up we know that inner spring plate is working its way into the alloy. This has the effect of softening the springs initial travel. The loose plate means you only compress one side of the springs coils for the first 1mm of their travel. The springs STIFFNESS is gradualy reduced.

DIAPHRAGM SPRING WEAR - These hold the basket against the gear and hub with a certain tension when new. This will have a damping effect on free movement of the basket about the hub of the gear and will be proportional to the springs load. At the same time the hub wears we see this causes wear to the surfaces of these two springs. The basket becomes even more FREE to move about.

The baskets weight remains the same. The basket becomes FREE for two reasons. The springs becomes less STIFF because of the loose plate.

The chudder creeps in gradualy as the two variables (FREE and STIFF reach critical values that allow the basket to vibrate at its own natural resonant frequency.

Washers or shims under the damper springs will increase initial spring STIFFNESS to a point where the natural resonant frequency of the basket moves to a point higher up the frequency scale. IMHO this is why washers or shims have the effect they do. Just where the new resonant frequency of the system ends up is a trial and error. Existing state of wear (LOOSENESS) and thickness of washers (NEW STIFFNESS) used to pack the springs will be main factors. Peak natural resonant frequency seems to be at 3,400 cycles per minute (engine rpm and a V twin fires once every revolution) for most worn dampers. Of course the torque pulses are not spaced equaly because of the 270 degree gap between positive pulses. But we know the resulting resonant frequency is about 3,400 cycles per minute (or 56 cycles per second) 56Hz. At least it was in both my SV1000. If washers can move the natural resonant frequency to a point outside the range used then thats very good. The next harmonic of a standard resonating basket should be about 7,000 cycles per minute or 7,000 rpm. Anyone confirm this?

The loose spring plate will continue to loosen - again reducing effective spring stiffness. The centre hub will continue to wear so increasing looseness of the basket/mass. The diaphragm springs will continue to wear so increasing the freedom of the basket yet further.

IMHO I think the final bit of grab we feel in standard clutches is down to the wear in the centre of the clutch basktet hub. This because the alloy drive plates are centred by the clutch basket. If the worn hub of the basket rocks on the loose hub due to the known uneven torsion damper spring phase, then the friction plates will not be gripped in the centre of the steel plates. I think this also contributes to the vibration we experience in a chuddering basket. The friction plates remain slightly "off centre" until the next time the lever is pulled. Once the hub is worn enough then the weight of the plates will introduce a vibration of their own. This could be at all speeds, not just the chuddering frequency. Alternatively the mass of the basket required to chudder might also need the mass of the friction plates and drive plates to occur.
I know from plenty of experince in manual transmission clutches that wear or failure of the eqivalent bearing causes grab on take off and vibration at certain engine speeds. The friction plates don't quite nip up true between the pressure plates.

The clutches on the standard SV tend to grab at the last point of take up. The back torque limiter (or more correctly the forward torque increaser) is often blamed for this. Theory makes sense on high speed take off's but is also present on the lightest most gentle of take off where the forward torque increaser does not operate. DL owners have reported the same grab and these don't have the BTL clutch. Anyone swap from stock DL to SV BTL clutch notice a change in the grab?