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  #21  
Old 11-03-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notacop View Post
It's been years since I did dirt but I found that standing on the pegs and let the bike wander around under me was something I got used to.
Sitting on the bike just won't let the bike do what the terrain wants it it do.
I tried to refresh the techniques on a 17 mile stretch of dirt road recently. Even tried squirting around corners using the throttle. Man, am I out of practice. Fun though.
What the pro's do is really amazing.
Agree! I think you could fill a page with calcs and still get varying opinions. As far as my experience goes, limited to dirt/gravel/sandy roads, ( very little single track) standing on the pegs places my weight low at that level and this point acts as a fulcrum to my body weight above. The COG of both rider and bike is dramatically lowered. Weighting your feet has varying dynamics depending on the corner and your speed. A speedway rider ( or MXer) has all of his weight on the outside leg/peg and I believe thats where the CoG is as the body is not a fixture on the bike. If the body was instead a tall lump of steel welded and fixed to the pegs the CoG would be different again with different dynamics. All very interesting. The inside leg is way forward for balance. I have done this style a couple of times but it was always accidental and ended in a prang.
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  #22  
Old 11-03-2012, 11:06 PM
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.
After a recent shot of caffeine, I'm feeling disputatious.

* Centres of Gravity :
When sitting on the bike, with knees/thighs contacting the sides of the bike, then body & bike are pretty much one unit, so their two CofG's combine into one CofG.
Your body CofG is approx at hip level (unless you are touching your toes or doing other weird gymnastics) and the bike's CofG is about halfway between front and rear axles yet about 10 cm higher than that inter-axle line.

Obviously the combined CofG must be somewhere above that 10 cm level ~ and you can easily figure out the approximate position by comparing the relative masses and positioning of body & bike (and their CofG's).
Again : as you stand on the bike, your hip level goes higher, and so the combined CofG must go a bit higher [but I'm guesstimating that the rise is only 5-10 cm for the average rider on a Strom.
Probably no real argument about any of this.

Now, 5-10 cm ain't much . . . as the actress said to the bishop.
So why should the handling be much different?

As Notacop has just said [as by many others before] ~ when standing, the two masses [body; bike] become semi-independent.
The bike can move around more nimbly ~ the stabilizing forces deriving from the front wheel's castor effect are able to work more effectively on the [now somewhat "smaller"] mass of the bike [or, "bike and a bit", if you wish].
Result : good . . . or at least significantly better, for loose/slidey road surfaces.

Now the Strom is only 75% Miss Piggy.
And it all comes about because you have "loosened" your body from the bike.
Very little to do with Centres-of-Gravity or "Weighting the Pegs".
.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1W1 View Post
Sorry but that is rubbish.
There is only one centre of gravity. You can only have ONE centre of anything.
The centre of gravity changes depending on the load of the bike and the position of the rider but there is only and always will be only ONE.
You didn't read my post properly or I didn't phrase it well.

The bike has a CG, and the rider has a CG. When the rider is ON the bike they come together and the result is the COMBINED CG.

My point was, if the rider stands on the pegs, his CG rises, and so does the location of the Combined CG.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
After a recent shot of caffeine, I'm feeling disputatious.

* Centres of Gravity :
When sitting on the bike, with knees/thighs contacting the sides of the bike, then body & bike are pretty much one unit, so their two CofG's combine into one CofG.
Your body CofG is approx at hip level (unless you are touching your toes or doing other weird gymnastics) and the bike's CofG is about halfway between front and rear axles yet about 10 cm higher than that inter-axle line.

Obviously the combined CofG must be somewhere above that 10 cm level ~ and you can easily figure out the approximate position by comparing the relative masses and positioning of body & bike (and their CofG's).
Again : as you stand on the bike, your hip level goes higher, and so the combined CofG must go a bit higher [but I'm guesstimating that the rise is only 5-10 cm for the average rider on a Strom.
Probably no real argument about any of this.

Now, 5-10 cm ain't much . . . as the actress said to the bishop.
So why should the handling be much different?

As Notacop has just said [as by many others before] ~ when standing, the two masses [body; bike] become semi-independent.
The bike can move around more nimbly ~ the stabilizing forces deriving from the front wheel's castor effect are able to work more effectively on the [now somewhat "smaller"] mass of the bike [or, "bike and a bit", if you wish].
Result : good . . . or at least significantly better, for loose/slidey road surfaces.

Now the Strom is only 75% Miss Piggy.
And it all comes about because you have "loosened" your body from the bike.
Very little to do with Centres-of-Gravity or "Weighting the Pegs".
.
Exactly. You nailed it.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:55 AM
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Just did over 100 km of dirt forestry roads and some light duty 4WD tracks. Spent most of the time sitting on the bike which had 38 and 40psi pressures in the tyres. Speeds between walking pace with a bit of clutch feathering through to about 80kph. A couple of young guys on trail bikes were somewhat surprised to have an old guy sitting on a Strom pass them. Technique and experience wins over forum posting any day so as I said to the OP in an earlier post go out and get some training then practice.
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  #26  
Old 11-04-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1W1 View Post
Sorry but that is rubbish.
There is only one centre of gravity. You can only have ONE centre of anything.
The centre of gravity changes depending on the load of the bike and the position of the rider but there is only and always will be only ONE.
Absolutely correct Kiwi. Only when a rider is standing separate from the bike, there are TWO CoGs but only then, but when mounted on the bike there can only be ONE. What is happening is a CHANGING CoG, not two operating either independently or in concert with each other, not as long as the riders weight either in whole or in part is on the bike.
Standing on the pegs and weighting the pegs is on every instructional book or video I have seen, the lower CoG greatly assists balance. When I ride on dirt roads I find riding "loose" to be the best for me but that is a matter personal technique.
In the end I suggest doing what most stops you falling off, getting hurt ... hurts!

Saturn 5 .... submitting to the laws of gravity!
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  #27  
Old 11-04-2012, 08:40 AM
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(more coffee)

The so-called "weighting the inside/outside peg" is somewhat more of a head-scratcher of a term.
Such terms have been used for donkeys' years, by some expert riders, in describing how they ride certain conditions.
But what is happening, what are they actually doing [rather than saying] ?

Try it yourself : stand while riding. Then, without moving your body sideways at all : carefully take all the weight off one foot.

Result : nothing. No change. And the reason being that your Centre-of-Gravity has not moved ~ there has just been a redistribution of static supporting forces in your two hands and other foot.

Yes, you can make the bike respond/turn, through dynamically throwing your hip-region and/or shoulders-region mass to one side of the bike (and probably, at the same time your hands are exerting an unconscious counter steering force too).

All very complex. And it works. And I greatly respect those who can throw & power & slide a bike around an MX or Enduro course . . . and even more do I respect those who can throw Miss Piggy road bikes around on dirt roads.
However, I do wish all that Venerable & Ancient talk about "weighting the pegs" . . . could be replaced by more accurate and less misleading terminology.

*** As you can see in [K1W1's] snapshot in post #19 . . . the rider may or may not be "weighting" one or other of the pegs . . . but he has clearly moved his body CofG well to one side of the bike, in the conventional "overleaning-the-bike" cornering technique.
.
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  #28  
Old 11-04-2012, 11:22 PM
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By your own admission you don't understand the concept of weighting the pegs and dismiss it. Hmmm.
It's a brave man who dismisses the expert riders. I'd agree with them but I'm not going to get my tits in a tangle over it.

Whatever, I have to take the Budgie for a walk.

Saturn 5
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2012, 02:12 AM
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(yet more coffee)

Thanks, Saturn-5 . . . though I certainly don't dismiss the riding expertise of expert riders.
I greatly admire it.

But some of the expert riders fall short of the expertise of explaining how they do what they do.

Remember when you were a kid riding a bicycle ?
Probably you soon got very good at it ~ maybe even became a Skid Kid ?
I daresay that you (and I) at that age had little or no understanding of the science of bicycle riding, nor could we explain it well to novices. It was just something you did, and did well.
Countersteering, resultant forces, mass, momentum . . . wozzat ?

The way forward was to practise, and take a few falls . . . practise, and fall, until you got really good.
That was adequate for bicycles . . . but not so much of a good idea for motorcycling.

Riding a motorbike is a level or two above that.
You are pushing the envelope in performance, traction, braking. And danger.

Best to know/understand where the limits are (before you pass over the threshold) so that the learning curve can be tackled as quickly and safely as possible. Otherwise, if a rider doesn't understand the basic science, then he ends up as [worst case] a rear-brake-only user, or suchlike.
Similarly, a rider can best advance his skills if he receives good scientifically-based instruction ~ and clear, well-thought-through terminology.
Fuzzy concepts don't belong, even if they have been around for years.

Take "weighting the inside/outside peg", for instance.
Is it literally a useful and accurate term, or is it actually just a shorthand or code-phrase for a whole group of actions which a rider does (or thinks he does) during cornering ?

That's an okay thing to say, if it's a group of expert riders talking among themselves and knowing what they [sort of] mean by it . . . but it's vastly less use in educating and explaining stuff to other riders who don't speak a da language.
Even worse, it is misleading if it's a phrase which is based on inaccurate concepts [which may . . . or may not . . . be the case with "weighting"].

Look at "Centre-of-Gravity" for example ~ a clearcut term with exact meaning for engineers. But look through this thread, and you will find a number of comments indicating that their posters have forgotten or never grasped, or have confused and overlapped it with other concepts ~ with the result that there's a lot of talk and heat, and only small progress.

* My apologies for all my wind-filled baggage (above) ~ but the topic is too complex to discuss by means of a short paragraph of a post.
And even with all that verbiage, I fear that I have not expressed fully and clearly the context of my humble inquiry about the so-called "weighting".
.
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2012, 03:18 AM
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Wow - three pages of science, enough to make Dr Kruzlekrutchski blush. And all I wanted to know was am I a crappy rider????

Looks like its off to the forest for lots more stacks for me.:yikes
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