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Skaty Strom

6K views 54 replies 20 participants last post by  saturn 5 
#1 ·
Howdy all

Ive had my 650 for a couple of years now. It had intermediate tyres on it when I bought it and at the first replacement the mechanic put the same ones on.

I do about 98% of my riding on the road. Just a couple of times have I been off the tar. On good dirt roads I find it ok. But if there is any loose stuff, sandy covering or stones it seems very, very skaty and it always feels like the front is going to go out from under me.

Last week in the mountains west of Canberra, the dirt/rock road felt like riding on marbles. And eventually I had a very big stack - despite going slow and careful.

So my question is this - is the V Strom not really good off road at the best of times, is it the tyres, or am I just a crap rider (if you think I am, you can tell me, I've got the stones).

I so want to be able to hit the mountain roads, but not like I did last week.

Also I'd like to replace the plastic fairings which were damaged in the stack. Anyone know some good websites where I may get them cheaper than the outrageous prices quoted by my dealer?

Thanks.

Fess
 
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#36 ·
Thanks again guys, particularly Mountain Man and Mr Nullabor.

Gotta say I did have an old DR 250, but I sold that to get the V Strom and guess what, I thought it was too skaty on the dirt. BUT - my part time job has a $10k cheque in the mail to me, so I think its time to sacrifice a few grand and get me another dirt bike because I definitely don't want to give up haulin the Strom along the dirt. There's a couple of rides South of Canberra I'm targetting. I fly aeroplanes for a living and I often pick my rides by what I see down in the forests from the air. No point looking down from 37,000 feet at bitumen roads only.

So - buy Offroad riding DVD, research dirt riding course, buy trail bike to crash.

Thanks all
 
#38 ·
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A funny thing happened to me on the way to the Forum . . .

When I checked into the Oz sub-section of another forum (not a Strom forum, but having many Strommy members ~ are we allowed to name it? . . . or do the rules demand that we be very indirect like Parliamentarians referring to "Another Place" ? ) I found a corker of a thread, titled "Riding Technique".
Sponsored by the usually-friendly "Southern Cross" [or similar name], it seemed to be following in the footsteps of our own Stromtrooper thread about Centres-of-Gravity and Weighting-of-Pegs.

Predictably, the "other thread" soon got into some humorous banter [good] but then some of the Flat Earth Society members weighed in [bad] with their bizarre theories about lower being higher (and so on).

All in all, for people with an interest in the same topics as here, that thread is worth reading through . . . though you will have to fight your way past a certain amount of chaff (and chaffing).

Several points were made, which do not appear in "our" thread.
One was a superb photo of a PepsiCola bottle, submitted by "Eepeqez", illustrating the disparity between the concepts of CofG and of support platform (support points).
Thanks, Eepeqez.
Another, was an eye-opening [for me] term or phrase written by "Matt-D" ~ initially he waffled on with the usual clichés of "weighting the pegs", but then he came out with the term "riding outside the bike".
Bingo! . . . and I thought his arrow had got pretty close to the bullseye.
That's a MUCH better phrase to describe what expert riders are actually doing.

And you can see it (again) in K1W1's post #19 snapshot here . . . where the rider, regardless of the extreme angles, has got his body CofG well to one side of his bike's midline.
The rider may or may not be weighting one or the other footpeg, but he has certainly moved his bum and shoulders.

So what? you say . . . nothing new about that technique for cornering on dirt.
But the point here is that the riding technique in reality uses the the off-to-the-side positioning of body CofG . . . and any "weight" on the pegs is really just the tail following the dog (so to speak).
"Overleaning the bike" is exactly the same way of saying what's going on.

Why not use the old cliche "weight the X peg" or "unweight the Y peg" ?

Well, (a) those terms don't tell the novice what "target" he should be aiming to achieve [i.e. getting the body off-centre] to get better cornering effect,
and (b) it raises other confusing issues about the pegs ~ like this : picture a Mad Skillz or Circus Trick Rider doing his cornering by overleaning the bike . . . but this time he is kneeling side-saddle (both knees on the saddle : bum and shoulders off centre-line).
He is achieving the same cornering . . . but there is absolutely no weight on the pegs at all.
Not recommended to do at home. But it illustrates that the weighting on the pegs is not the prime cause of steering (though of course, those pegs are jolly convenient support points when you are standing up in the normal way).

So, Saturn-5, is all forgiven? Can I be welcomed back, now that I have made a clearer explanation of the basis for my skepticism about "weighting" ?
I believe you have a high level of riding abilities, and I believe you have given a lot of excellent practical riding advice in this thread. The operative word being "Practical". But your explanations on the "why of it" have been a touch . . . misleading.

Again my apologies for [necessary?] long-windedness.
.
 
#40 ·
Nulla, Life has taught me that fights or arguments never achieve much other than high blood pressure. It was never my intention to give detail instruction, as I said, some 'Tips". Those tips I have learned by falling off or tips passed onto me or by observing those I class as experts, over a very long time. These days there are heaps on the net too.
I pass on tips in good faith but following them is not compulsory.
If it can save someone from a guttser,.... I'm happy.

Safe riding all

Saturn 5 ......Travel by gravel and double your map.


EDIT: Suzy strom. No idea, anyone?
 
#41 · (Edited)
Howdy all
On good dirt roads I find it ok. But if there is any loose stuff, sandy covering or stones it seems very, very skaty and it always feels like the front is going to go out from under me.

Last week in the mountains west of Canberra, the dirt/rock road felt like riding on marbles. And eventually I had a very big stack - despite going slow and careful.

So my question is this - is the V Strom not really good off road at the best of times, is it the tyres, or am I just a crap rider (if you think I am, you can tell me, I've got the stones).


Fess
I have been having such a blast on gravel/dirt roads I just have to contribute to this thread

I have been doing a lot of gravel roads recently – and while not 'ball-bearing' stuff, it does include some loose blue stone surface stuff that used to get me to tippy-toe though.

I used to ride lightweight trail bikes in sand (West Aust) in my youth – so steering with the rear wheel was the go.
Many years later and on a 2012 DL 650 that all changed. What a different situation with the heavier bike.
I was more than a little wary of gravel roads when I started on this L2 650 V-Strom, then I came across this article written by a bike products store owner -- and it turned all that around. (details below)

The article I read said
"To turn right, press your left knee into the tank and at the same time press down on the right footpeg with your right toes. Push the handlebars bars to the right, in a lateral movement."

That way of riding (including the standing on the pegs part he has in the article) has been so great -- it has freed me from any feeling of terror when a chosen road turns to gravel.
When I came to road works and a gravel stretch -- I used to get quite worried -- and now I have the experience from practicing the ideas this guy wrote about to not be concerned.

To backtrack a little – I had read his 'How to Handle a bike off-road' article, and wasn't seeing it as important as it was -- when I came across an article in a local bike mag (Aust Road Rider) about what accessories and pieces they'd changed on this 'project bike' they had at the mag -- a KTM 990. They mentioned that they'd put larger footpegs on the bike -- and likened that to adding 'power steering'.
I immediately picked-up on that -- and saw how this pegs pressure thing is widely known about.
And incorporating the lateral movement of the handlebars the Peterson article speaks of -- it makes a complete turning technique.
So -- I've been playing with when to add that bit of footpeg pressure in road riding situations now.

Here's the gist of the turning aspects of the Peterson article – with reference to his pdf download

Pavement techniques call for “counter-steering”. Push the bars forward on the right to turn right, push the bars forward on the left to turn left. It works great, but keep that technique where it belongs - on the pavement.
*
Off-Road techniques are somewhat different because of the traction issues involved in the dirt. If you use a road riding technique that relies on counter-steering, you may experience some interesting events, none of which are pleasant.
Off-Road riding relies on different handlebar techniques, knee movements, weight transfer, and other “body English” techniques to control the direction of the motorcycle.

When you’re standing on the pegs you’ll use your knees, your toes, the handlebars, and basically your entire body to control the direction of the motorcycle.

1. To turn right, press your left knee into the tank and at the same time press down on the right footpeg with your right toes. Push the handlebars bars to the right, in a lateral movement.

2. To turn left, press your right knee into the tank and at the same press down on the left footpeg with your left toes. Push the handlebars bars to the left, in a lateral movement.

3. I don’t intentionally TURN the handlebars right or left, instead I take the entire handlebar assembly and move it sideways in the direction of the turn, slightly pressing DOWN on the side of the bars closest to the inside of the turn.

4. The more you accentuate the above movements, the sharper the turn will be.

5. These techniques can be used at any speed when you’re riding Off-Road.

6. When practicing this technique in a slow figure-8 course, the rider will be making dramatic shifts of his body, from left to right and vice versa. The rider always stays “on top of the bike”, keeping the bike between them and the ground.

7. Positioning your body “on top of the bike” keeps your center of balance over the contact patches of the wheels, which improves your traction.

8. Unlike a street rider who aggressively hangs off his bike on the INSIDE of the turn, the Off-Road rider pushes the bike laterally toward the inside of the turn, as they positions their body ON TOP of the bike.

9. The key point to remember is that you want to be “pushing” the bike downward toward the axis of the turn, and as you move your body further away from the axis of the turn (or away from the pivot point), and toward the outside of the bike

above (with changes) from pages 33 + 34 of 76 Version 03/29/2012 10:09 2012 David Petersen
The full 76 page pdf can be found at
BestRest Products, LLC
You'll see the 'Download a FREE How-To-Ride Off Road Article' link a
a short way down that homepage
-----------------------------------------
I also have a fork brace, and run about 25 psi front and rear on long streteches of gravel (have an electric pump) -- but still on the Trailwings
 
#43 ·
Thanks for sharing chrisbre, and others. i'm doing a 3 day dirt ride this w/end and will try to disect "what and why" I do, and introduce other techniques along the way. I should have plenty of room to practice as the others will be miles ahead of me :green_lol:
 
#45 ·
Thanks again guys. What a great article Chrisbre - I appreciate your time so much.

As a postcript, after 9 days since my ding, hobbling around, I finally had x rays - confirmed - a broken ankle. How tough am I eh??!!! 9 days walking round on a broken ankle and I didn't cry once.


Hey OneOff - thanks for the welcome. Love ya bluntness, ha ha - yep I might be a crap rider, but Jesus can I FLY!!!!!!! No dirt, rocks or things to run into up there. (Thanks to Ronnie RAAF and all those years rippin round in Air Force jets.)
 
#46 ·
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Thanks also, Chrisbre, for putting in a great effort there.

As SuzyVStrom says : "It's hard to describe what we do on bikes,"

Sometimes the words are very helpful for learning & doing stuff.
Sometimes the words get in the way of all that complex Body English & peg weighting & handlebar pressures.
Sometime the words distract us from observing & thinking about what we are doing ~ or should be doing better !

Doing & thinking it over . . . observing the experts . . . doing & thinking . . . seems to be the way forward.

A few more decades, and I reckon I'll be getting a lot better.
Just don't roost me as you are overtaking.
.
 
#47 ·
That concurs with the advice I was given when starting out on dual sport riding-when riding on sealed roads hang your body into the corner keeping the bike as upright as possible; when riding gravel roads push the bike down into the corner keeping your body as upright as possible. Works for me.
 
#48 ·
Hey Fess, look at this ride. A bit of easy dirt and a very relaxing trip with a few like minded folk. You may not learn much about riding on dirt roads, but sure will be fun :thumbup:
 
#49 ·
Hey Chops, interesting that you have chosen that route - the road between Taralga and Oberon along the Shooters Hill Road - I was on that road last week after stackin the Strom. If you stop at the beautiful little Shooters Hill cemetery you will see a whole bunch of graves of the Dennis family. These are all my relatives. A bunch of my grandfathers are all buried there. You will see a grave of William Dennis - he is my Grandfather's great grand father - so my great great great grandfather, and obviously my children's great great great great grandfather. I took my mate there and showed him all my bloodline.

Its a pretty spiritual place for me, and a beautiful little spot. My grandfather and father both spoiled the line there as they are both buried at Shellharbour where I grew up.

Would love to do the ride as its entirely beautiful - but unfortunately my ankle will be in a cast for another 4 weeks at least, and also, unfortunately I live down in Melbourne these days - its a long way from home.

And to all those who said go and get a dirt bike and practice in the gravel - tomorrow I go to look at two WR250Fs. How good is my wife - I stack my bike, break my ankle, and she says yeah, go and get another bike!!!!

And Go The Tigers!!!!!!!!
 
#50 · (Edited)
No No No, No more tips, well there is but not from me. An interesting TV program you may want to see here replayed on the net. I've not seen it all, just the last few minutes on tele. The show had Daryl Beatty involved and he is a bloke who has a rough idea on how to ride.

WWW.TheUltimateRiderCompetition.com.au

Now who's gonna say he's wrong! :thumbup:

Should be good so I'm about to look at the Net replay myself.

Oh, ... there is a competition for the CBRR1000 they use in the show, so if you win it, remember me and sling me a Quid or two.

Saturn 5
 
#51 ·
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Reverse all those Noes, Saturn-5 !
Please continue giving useful tips and good practical advice on dirt riding. All of us novices benefit from learning and/or reviewing them.
(Yes, this is my genuine AND FRIENDLY request.)

But please don't mislead novices by attempting to give traditional-but-shonky reasons to back up SOME of those tips (however many books/videos those reasons used to appear in).

Best not to mention Centres-of-Gravity at all, either here or in the "other forum" Aussie-subsection ~ which BTW was still trundling along, having added some sensible comments by "Beemerboff" [#143] but then falling into another hole (where the writer of post #145 started off well but then trotted out the old nonsense in his final sentence).
"Eepeqez" then again came out with his beautiful picture of a leaning PepsiCola bottle ~ a picture that can explain a lot in only a few seconds of thinking about it. And also helps explain why "overleaning" the bike does not, cannot, put any more weight on the tyres . . . in case anyone here wishes to reassert that old furphy.

"Weighting the pegs" [which, please note : I do NOT "dismiss", as you IMPLIED in #28 of our thread] is a real minefield of a term, and ought to be replaced with a better term, most of the time. Maybe "overleaning the bike" or "riding outside the bike" . . . or something.
SuzyVStrom has made some good comments about "weighting" ~ he has carefully observed his own actions and finds that [overleaning] the bike on a dirt corner involves "weighting" first one peg . . . then the other peg . . . in getting his body off-centre from the bike's midline.
That, I must say, appeals to common sense ~ it is the forceful moving of the body and its location into a new [lateral] position that makes a real difference to cornering (rather than any fundamental causative effect from whatever "weight" is on whichever peg).

BTW there is now ANOTHER dirt riding thread in that "other" forum [under Perfect Line this time] and the guys are ALREADY in controversy about which peg to "weight".
One more piece of evidence why "weighting the peg" should be a rarely-used term. Too much confusion, at the novice / intermediate level.

Do I count myself as a novice dirt rider ?
Certainly : I regard myself as a novice ~ though not a complete novice ~ and I will continue to regard myself as a novice until I can become halfway as good a dirt rider as Jimmy Lewis . . . or at least, until I can finish in the first dozen places of the Finke Desert Race without falling once !!
Could be a while . . .
.
 
#52 · (Edited)
This thread can go on adnauseam but at least it has got people talking, some even argue but something good should come of it I hope. To finish my posts on this thread, I'll explain my tip on weighting the pegs, (I never thought it would bring on all this debate ) which doesn't work for all bikes or riders ....apparently? Hmmm. The term was always in common usage, don't know when or why or if it's not still in use. Maybe some haven't heard of it. I dunno.I was taught this way and it sure works for me and on any bike I've ridden.

OK here goes. Watch a pushbike rider labouring up a hill, pushing on the pedals, left right left right. See the way the bike behaves. It weaves under the weight of the pedals. Despite the nay sayers it works on motorcycles too. Think about it and try it, you'll see it helps in cornering. But the stinger is .....If you are out playing, sliding the rear, hanging the back out, place all or most of your weight on the OUTSIDE peg. This makes the tyre bite or dig in. Watch speedway and note how the outside peg (always on the right as speedway always runs anti-clockwise.) That's extreme riding and fun but I'm not up to doing it on the Strom but on lighter bikes it's irresistable.

Enough of this thread I'm gonna rocket off. OH... Welcome again Fester, just look at your thread. :mrgreen:

Saturn 5

Post script: Re Pepsi bottle, is CoG and balance the same?... Always?
 
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